Doods where do you get your infos?

Dyno numbers are like a bunch of diesel truck owners comparing fuel economy around a campfire....first liar never has a chance.

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Jard

There's your PGT numbers. 210hp / 260tq and it weighs 3300 lbs. 15.7 lbs/hp.

That is the MAX a PGT car will make. The rest of the noise the owner of that car makes on SS about more power is just that, noise. I don't care what dyno he is using, airflow is airflow.

Now, considering you could legitimately see an OL car weigh around 2650 pounds, and then add this (I ain't saying its cheap!)

http://www.rs25.com/forums/f5/36040-zzyzx-motorsports-2-5-rs-breaks-300-na-hp-5.html

Both a max spec PGT and this n/a engine would have to run race fuel, so that's pretty even cost wise. So yes, I do think you could get an OL car to run against a max spec PGT car. Would it be worth it? Which is more temperamental? Waaaadunno!

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HiTempguy

Quote
Jard

There's your PGT numbers. 210hp / 260tq and it weighs 3300 lbs. 15.7 lbs/hp.

That is the MAX a PGT car will make. The rest of the noise the owner of that car makes on SS about more power is just that, noise. I don't care what dyno he is using, airflow is airflow.

Now, considering you could legitimately see an OL car weigh around 2650 pounds, and then add this (I ain't saying its cheap!)

http://www.rs25.com/forums/f5/36040-zzyzx-motorsports-2-5-rs-breaks-300-na-hp-5.html

Both a max spec PGT and this n/a engine would have to run race fuel, so that's pretty even cost wise. So yes, I do think you could get an OL car to run against a max spec PGT car. Would it be worth it? Which is more temperamental? Waaaadunno!

Boys Boys! BOYS!

wHorespowerz is not the question.
Turdboat Sub-a-rat 12.69 lbs per foot/lb
2.5 'some?" spec Sub-a-rat 17.56 lbs per ft/lb

with same box and final drive the 2.5 thang will be in tief scheisse.

Any of youse guys noticed since oh about 1982 that it is mainly 4 cylinder turbo motors that have flat dominated rally---even though they were way heavier? And had wheel size limitations, and then 40mm restrictors, then 38mm and then 36 and then 34 and now 33mm?

Now if'n somebody had say a 4.1 in the turbo axles and 5.1 in the n.a. thang OOOOPS! suddenly that light thing has 24.4% moar toarx. That's like 190 ft/lbs
So 14 lbs per foot/lb

An insignificant difference and weeze have no idea what ft/lbs is an a "well done" 2.5 made by somebody who really knows RALLY needs.

Talking HP is for "guys" hangin round sipping PBR.

Torque, gears, final drive is the place to find performance.
even if its kinda hard to brag about.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
NoCoast
There's a local Subaru with a 2.5 and the STI drivetrain and Rocket Rally diff computer and RSSPs. Just about same speed as a 5 speed. Extra weight negates benefit of gearing and active diff just isn't as useful without 500 ft lbs.

I stayed out of that conversation cause all I felt I could add was both are boring compared to a hot RWD car.

FWIW, this is the same car that I've ridden in and thought 'meh.' I was seriously considering buying the car until I got a ride. Built the BMW instead, and even though its cost me a little more and 2 years of build/development time, I knew the 2nd time I took it to CORE that I'd made the right decision.

I'd also say that even if at sea level you could make an OL car faster than PGT, you're not necessarily going to see the same thing in Colorado. I think that contributes hugely to the feeling of "boring" up here.

Other thing I'm not seeing here is discussion on the fact that OL was more or less supposed to be an inexpensive class, wasn't it?

Dave

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DaveK
Other thing I'm not seeing here is discussion on the fact that OL was more or less supposed to be an inexpensive class, wasn't it?

Until the 'inexpensive' bit is added to the rules, it doesn't much matter what the class was "supposed" to be, does it?

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Aaron Luptak

Quote
DaveK
Other thing I'm not seeing here is discussion on the fact that OL was more or less supposed to be an inexpensive class, wasn't it?

Until the 'inexpensive' bit is added to the rules, it doesn't much matter what the class was "supposed" to be, does it?

Exactly. " 'spossed to" doesn't limit anything.
That's the beauty of 2wd.
Grip is finite. Spend all you want and go insane, and we've seen time and again it's not decisive.
Look at Mt.Hood results in Group 2. A couple of mid 90s Honjas, a mid 80s Corolla with a poopy mild motor, a new maz-dog3, a 42 year old Saab 96, a 70s Volvo, more corollas, a VW Golf all seconds apart.

To me, the car is simply a tool. What tool can I use to 'do the job' for the most fun and least cost?

sure is nice being able to worry about only one diff and to be able to buy ring and pinions in the right range for $12-135.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Look down...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2011 02:31PM by fliz.

Quote
DaveK

Other thing I'm not seeing here is discussion on the fact that OL was more or less supposed to be an inexpensive class, wasn't it?

Dave

I thought Open Light was created so novices could rally Subarus w/o having a waiver and 28mm restrictor on a turbo AWD car.

I'm not sure why it's even valid to compare PGT to Open Light. Top Spec Open Light car will have costs comparable to an Open car...not a PGT car.

Quote
HiTempguy
Now, considering you could legitimately see an OL car weigh around 2650 pounds, and then add this (I ain't saying its cheap!)

http://www.rs25.com/forums/f5/36040-zzyzx-motorsports-2-5-rs-breaks-300-na-hp-5.html

Both a max spec PGT and this n/a engine would have to run race fuel, so that's pretty even cost wise. So yes, I do think you could get an OL car to run against a max spec PGT car. Would it be worth it? Which is more temperamental? Waaaadunno!

Yeah, this is the same Jay Storm that modernbeat was talking about...so 300HP on that NA EJ25 ain't going to get you real far...

http://www.rs25.com/forums/f5/2189554-post123.html

Quote
john vanlandingham
Boys Boys! BOYS!

wHorespowerz is not the question.
Turdboat Sub-a-rat 12.69 lbs per foot/lb
2.5 'some?" spec Sub-a-rat 17.56 lbs per ft/lb

with same box and final drive the 2.5 thang will be in tief scheisse.

Any of youse guys noticed since oh about 1982 that it is mainly 4 cylinder turbo motors that have flat dominated rally---even though they were way heavier? And had wheel size limitations, and then 40mm restrictors, then 38mm and then 36 and then 34 and now 33mm?

Now if'n somebody had say a 4.1 in the turbo axles and 5.1 in the n.a. thang OOOOPS! suddenly that light thing has 24.4% moar toarx. That's like 190 ft/lbs
So 14 lbs per foot/lb

An insignificant difference and weeze have no idea what ft/lbs is an a "well done" 2.5 made by somebody who really knows RALLY needs.

Talking HP is for "guys" hangin round sipping PBR.

Torque, gears, final drive is the place to find performance.
even if its kinda hard to brag about.

PGT final drive in an 02 - 07 WRX is 3.9.
OL could have 3.9, 4.11, or 4.44.

Quote
Jard
PGT final drive in an 02 - 07 WRX is 3.9.
OL could have 3.9, 4.11, or 4.44.

where's the rule saying that OL requires OEM gears?
(I have no idea if off-the-shelf aftermarket final drives are available - but for the right $$$$$, anything's possible.)

Man I feel bad for Suby guys sometimes...

Quote

A standard engine will run 350bhp-400bhp all day long in my experience. My 605bhp engine was HAMMERED for 10k miles and 4 years never skipped a beat. 70% of those were track miles.
You wont break the crank or rods with anything under 8000rpm and 600bhp...
Sensible limits with a standard engine seem to be 350hp, 400Nm on 1.5 bar (36mm restrictor or bigger).

I should mention that with the new engine and the reductions I've done over the last two years I should be in the 2400 lb weight area...

Quote
Aaron Luptak

Quote
Jard
PGT final drive in an 02 - 07 WRX is 3.9.
OL could have 3.9, 4.11, or 4.44.

where's the rule saying that OL requires OEM gears?
(I have no idea if off-the-shelf aftermarket final drives are available - but for the right $$$$$, anything's possible.)

That's a lot of money to spend to win a regional only class.

If you want to go all-in like that and stay NA, I'd look at the 3.3L motor out of a SVX in an old Subaru or Legacy. Then you have an Open car.

There's a rally car here in Colorado with a new 3.0 H6 in it and a rallycross one with the 3.3. Didn't Anders' car have a 3.3 in it? Seems like it'd make it heavier in all the wrong places. The front clearance is way tight in an Impreza with those also.

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NoCoast
Man I feel bad for Suby guys sometimes...

Quote

A standard engine will run 350bhp-400bhp all day long in my experience. My 605bhp engine was HAMMERED for 10k miles and 4 years never skipped a beat. 70% of those were track miles.
You wont break the crank or rods with anything under 8000rpm and 600bhp...
Sensible limits with a standard engine seem to be 350hp, 400Nm on 1.5 bar (36mm restrictor or bigger).

I should mention that with the new engine and the reductions I've done over the last two years I should be in the 2400 lb weight area...

I love it. Albertan hp must have always been at some US-Canadian exchange rate or maybe mile/km ratio.

The lead post there is the hero saying "we dynoed 230 crank hp, so thats 304 wheel hp blah blah blah" fully 30% loss.

Way back in 80s when 510 Ratsun guys were doing L20B I had an old book from the mid 70s WRC and they had piccies of Nissans motors for their Safari winning cars.They had a piccie of the L20B and said it only made 150 bhp, "not nearly enough", and then 2 different 16v motors the better of which gave like 185bhp "still a far cry from Ford's 256bhp in the BDG" .
Now at some point I was up in Alberta and a guy there was telling us all about his waaaaaaaaay wicked L20B that he swore--despite it idling like a baby---that "it had 254bhp...."

Funnily enough he was spanked bad by 140 bhp Saab and maybe 155 bhp Opels of Sam Bryan and Dave Clark (engines done by me)

Alberta BHP...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.