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Rally seats

Posted by NoCoast 
NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Rally seats
October 08, 2014 07:45PM
I have yet to see a decent head wing vs. no head wing discussion.
I like them as they prevent stuff like this:



On the other hand, I know of two women who have suffered decent head trauma following accidents with a headwing seat. One, Krista, the head trauma was potentially better than the alternative. The second was a friend at a hill climb, went off road into a field at ~80 and nosed down and bounced back and forth, no roll, and the driver was 100% fine in a non-headwing seat whereas codriver was airlifted to Denver with head trauma from ping ponging between the wings.

I know I personally will only use seats with them in my rally car but thought I'd see what others thought.



Grant Hughes
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Denver, CO
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aj_johnson
A.J. Johnson
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Re: Rally seats
October 08, 2014 08:19PM
Does a hans not provide side to side protection?
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heymagic
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Re: Rally seats
October 08, 2014 08:39PM
Not really, they have some limiting at an angle but not much. The tethers would have to be pretty tight to limit side to side and you couldn't turn your head .

My dad was dead set against seat belts back in the day. He was one of many who cited the risk of getting burned in a car fire from being trapped by the belts or even sillier not being able to jump out of the car to safety.

Safety changes with design of products and materials AND reviewed past data. We used to put seats in that had wrap arounds that went under the arms. Then it became apparent that actually cracked ribs and really rattled the heart on hard impacts. Seats then were designed to contain the shoulder area instead. NASCAR probably does more research into seats than most. The seats are amazing pieces of technology and very pricey. NASCAR drivers survive hard impacts at speeds we rarely see 1/2 of.

So...I currently would buy a winged seat if my kid got another car. Racing is a risk and we can only hope to put the odds on our side.
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stgallagher
Sean Gallagher
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Re: Rally seats
October 08, 2014 09:06PM
We have Racetech seats with the Head Wings in the Rally Truck.

Hate them.

You hit a bump the wrong way and you head rattles around like a Ping Pong Ball between the wings, and you get a fantastic headache as a bonus.

Next seats...No Wings. Wings are for Sanitary Pads. Too Chauvinistic?



2WD...Less Traction More Action!
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Aaron Luptak
Aaron Luptak
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Re: Rally seats
October 08, 2014 09:10PM
Quote
aj_johnson
Does a hans not provide side to side protection?

based on what I've read (and, dontcha know, it's illegal to put lies on the internet), that deserves a hearty "LOL".

My understanding is that the HANS provides the least side/angle impact protection out of any of the SFI/FIA devices out there - the primary problem it solves is head-on impacts. Great if you're punted head first into a wall, or lose your brakes down the front straight. Seems like pure head-on incidents are a lot less common in rally.

Both the Hybrid "family" and the NecksGen devices are allegedly better at handling side and angle forces. How much better, no idea. The NecksGen I can kind of see since the tethers aren't just straight behind you.



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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Rally seats
October 08, 2014 09:21PM
Grantie-pookie, could the common factor be that the wimminz simply had no muscles in the necks, ya know, slim girlie necks>

Most 'merikuns have near zero condition and are generally spoiled whiners* so maybe they need all the stuff, and there is always the Walter Mitty effect---which explains the stange anomoly of half the field being Subies...

What I wonder is how in harder, seriously physical sports you have idiots like me for example doing lawn dart imitations with our bodies with shocking frequency with---aside from 40-50mm loss of height---no (long term) evil effects till 35 years later--until there were no longer any muscles--like the general population...



*Everything is all relative...perhaps compared to Arab oil sheik princes we are a tough breed, but relative to many other Western countries we are spoiled whiners. Usually only their upper classes whine as piteously as is the norm here, especially younger guys...



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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si
John Farnsworth
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si
Re: Rally seats
October 08, 2014 10:16PM
I went with winged seats because I'd rather my head ping pong off of them than the temple bar, which would be the next stop. There's always going to be a situation where the safety gear will make it worse rather than better, but as Gene said, we're all just playing the odds. Seems safer to me than the alternative.

There's probably some question about the various designs of the wings. The BiMarco style wings don't seem "good" to me - they're very thin and seem rigid, as well as coming pretty far forward. Seems like I'd almost rather hit the cage bar than those, and if I hit them hard enough to matter, seems like they're just going to fold out of the way anyhow.

The Sparcos I got are a bit more stubby and have pretty thick padding. Perhaps that is actually worse for the ping pong described above, but seems like it should absorb more to me, which I expect to be the goal (similar to the cage padding). Feels like if the wings are made/designed right, you shouldn't ping pong, because it shouldn't be bouncing you back the other way. Should just be slowing your head down.

Alternate option, what happens to your neck if your head isn't ping ponging off the wings but is under the same forces? Neck muscles are great and all, but unless you're a body builder I can't imagine you're going to have much control against the weight of the helmet going where it wants to take your noggin. I wonder what the average weight of a modern SAH2010 helmet is vs a similar model 10 years ago?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2014 10:17PM by si.
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PeteNaz
Peter Nazarewycz
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Re: Rally seats
October 08, 2014 10:37PM
My head went around like a ping pong ball without the wings. I'd consider my crash at PFR to be fairly dramatic, but I'm biased. My neck was semi sore the day off and next day and just stiff still today but nothing that I would consider bad.

I only like the idea of the wings because in the video of my crash it looked like my head was about to stick out of the window...I think the glass was broken at the time as well. that said, I sat in my car today thinking about it and I dont think I would have ever actually made it far enough over for my head to stick out...still weird to think about and see after the fact



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buerckner
Andrew Buerckner
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Re: Rally seats
October 08, 2014 11:00PM
John's right about the physical conditioning,
I noticed a marked improvement in my recovery times after a rally aswell as fatigue and concentration during and event since I made an effort on my fitness and core strength.

Nothing too drastic, dirtbike riding for a few hours ever 2nd weekend or so, weekly pilates class with my wifey and when walking the dogs upping the pace and distance.

I had a big sudden stop at the last event where my(completely unfit/soft driver) had much greater injuries than myself and I don't think all of that can be attributed to the Hans vs Simpson that we wore.
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Matt Bobyn
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Re: Rally seats
October 08, 2014 11:02PM
Coming from the point of view of an experienced Paramedic - get seats with head wings. I've seen it before on street cars where heads get crushed during rollovers, so you go to the morgue. Your brain is a fragile little thing and no amount of neck muscles with stop the forces present during a rollover. Your roll cage won't stop you and the helmet adds to the momentum of your head.

The HANS is for forward movement restriction to help prevent basilar skull fractures and cervical spine fractures. (Like Stu's from last weekend). Key word there being helps not prevents. The human body doesn't handle lateral forces well - a Pathologist could elaborate on this more completely than I could.

Also, think of all the large rocks and trees that could come through that big glass or lexan opening right beside you. I've seen those kill as well. If you can deflect that with a seat wing all the better. Sit in some seats and find something that works - our OMP seats are wider than our old Sparcos and leave plenty of room for me to move my head around with a helmet on.

Maybe I've had a bad day and am feeling negative, but honestly, for most of us this is a hobby and a hobby isn't worth killing yourself over or ending up in a wheelchair with your wife wiping your ass for the next 30 years. Just f***ing buy them.

Edit: typos.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2014 11:05PM by Matt Bobyn.
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heymagic
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Re: Rally seats
October 08, 2014 11:05PM
Pete, we lost a ralliest and friend Rosematy Tindall years ago at a DooWop Rally. She suffered severe head trauma and it was said from her head being outside the car during a crash. The human body stretches an unbelievable amount under impact.

I imagine it depends a lot on the size of the vehicle. Seems like I think there was some issues with ping ponging in the NHRA and the hoops right over the heads in rails and funny cars. I'll have to check on what it was all about again.
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PeteNaz
Peter Nazarewycz
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Re: Rally seats
October 08, 2014 11:12PM
Yea believe me....after I saw the video I never thought that much happened with my head....it is still weird to watch for me. Thats the biggest thing I took from it, not that it would be ok without wings because my neck isnt doing that bad...but that I was scared about how my head looked like I was about to eat dirt... I may have worded it incorrectly...Matt put it perfectly



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Matt Bobyn
Matt Bobyn
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Re: Rally seats
October 08, 2014 11:17PM
And besides, you can then take your old ones and make an awesome office chair.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2014 11:17PM by Matt Bobyn.
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 12:42AM
Quote
heymagic
Pete, we lost a ralliest and friend Rosematy Tindall years ago at a DooWop Rally. She suffered severe head trauma and it was said from her head being outside the car during a crash. The human body stretches an unbelievable amount under impact.

I imagine it depends a lot on the size of the vehicle. Seems like I think there was some issues with ping ponging in the NHRA and the hoops right over the heads in rails and funny cars. I'll have to check on what it was all about again.

More like the tree coming in the side window...nothing you can do..cars are wider below the window. Hit below, car tilts up, tree comes in the widow...
Dave Dunn was less than 50 yards away. First to the car with his then fiancee--an emergency room nurse.



John Vanlandingham
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reecers
Reece
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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 07:43AM
so my only two cents to add is how do open wheel racers do it and get away with it. I guess more of them are in shape and maybe the cabin acts as the wings of the seat?



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