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Rally seats

Posted by NoCoast 
heymagic
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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 10:31AM
Indy type cars have a padded cowl area next to the helmet. Many of the sprint type cars have seat wings , especially on the right side of the seat. Lots of open wheel fatalities and injuries in racing history. Being in shape helps but can't prevent those type of injuries. Plenty of football players crippled at all levels from head and neck injuries. I think it is pretty obvious that JV playing lawn darts had an effect also..and explains a lot tongue sticking out smiley but seriously...Trees do come in cars and heads can move a lot. Back in the early 80s the whole pickup truck thing came to light. People were bitching about Chevy fuel tanks erupting on side impact . Studies showed most of the drivers were either already dead or unconscious from heads hitting the cab wall. Crap happens.

I think there is a problem with winged seats and the disparity in people sizes for one thing. NASCAR seats are custom made for the driver and cost more than many rally cars. Budget rally seats are a one size fits all...and likely not well. There may well be a relationship to the design or width and padding of a seat and potential injury. Helmet fitting may be a part of that also. Probably a fair amount of research left to be done at some point. FIA has been studying this for years and no big results. I'll guess that the size of our cars, the two occupants rather than one and the widely varied terrain and conditions will prevent any sort of definitive answer that works every time.

Best bet is don't crash. I rolled my old 510 down a bank pretty far. I remember my helmet hitting the side window hard 3 times. We had stock seats in those days, recliners no less. Every time I hit the window I waited for it to break. Seemed like forever before the car quit moving. In the end I broke a side mirror off..nothing else, well except for the tow bill to get the car back to the road. Cars are definitely faster these days and more of them are faster, not just the top 3 guys. Someone will always find a way to get hurt in spite of safety precautions. Right now 'we' don't mandate head wings so its all up to the individual.

SecureFoam will save rally

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HiTempguy
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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 10:47AM
Quote
Matt Bobyn
for most of us this is a hobby and a hobby isn't worth killing yourself over or ending up in a wheelchair with your wife wiping your ass for the next 30 years. Just f***ing buy them.

Said nobody in any form of amateur sport ever, whether motorized or otherwise.

I'm kidding, but not really in a sense.

For some reason, even though the risk is lower due to the safety features already in place, people still think it is necessary for MORE safety features in rally.

By your thought process, snowboarding and skiing should simply be BANNED as it is far too dangerous and nobody is killing themselves over a hobby... or motox, or snocross, or contact football (concussions anyone?), or full contact hockey, or or or or.

Part of the reason people do these sports is because of the risk. If there wasn't risk involved, you could get your kicks doing the same thing playing video games. Why do people bungie jump, or jump out of planes, or base jump? Why do any of these things if they are dangerous?

I've been in a lot crashes. I'm a big proponent of safety equipment. I'm not a big proponent of "think of the children" "oh my god the sky is falling" hyperbole (unless used in jest spinning smiley sticking its tongue out ).

If you can afford them and you can make them work in your car, use winged seats. To make it sound like you are going to die when tens of thousands of rallyists have used non-winged seats for decades with few incidents (there have been some, and no matter WHAT safety systems you have in place, there always will be since physics is a bitch) is absurd.
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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 10:55AM
my question is why does nasa rallysport require fia seats?



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Matt Bobyn
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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 11:04AM
Hey fair enough Adam - and I do partially agree with your point of view. I spend lots of time doing things can can kill me - mountain biking, skiing, had motorbikes for years, etc - but heres the thing: there is this simple, easy to do change that can drastically reduce your risk of getting injured, so why not do it? Is your life not worth an extra $300-500 on a seat?

I don't like scare tactics, and hey we raced with seats that didn't have head winds for years, but its not like the seat wings interfere with me or my life so much that I don't want them. I'm not saying live in a bubble, I'm not saying drastically change your behaviour or how you live life - because you still need to live and enjoy it. Risky shit is fun, rally is fun, I'm not going to stop because I'm afraid of hitting something or hurting myself.

But its so simple to do. Same with wearing seatbelts in a street car, or a helmet on a bicycle, or a leather jacket on a motorbike. Would you go skydiving without a reserve chute simply because its kinda uncomfortable to wear? I'd hate to see CARS mandate them, even the seat expiry is crap in my opinion.

At the end of the day people getting hurt is job security for me and other healthcare workers. Will you die without them? Probably not. Will they help in a rollover situation? Certainly. Are they interfering with your wallet/car comfort/whatever so much its not worth having that extra level of safety? Up to do to decide. I just hate to see my friends get hurt, leave that job for someone else.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2014 11:11AM by Matt Bobyn.
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HiTempguy
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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 11:23AM
Quote
Matt Bobyn

But its so simple to do.

Yes, it is absolutely simple to do... can I have $1k please? grinning smiley

Actually, in most households, a $1k increase in a hobby cost over the course of a year would get said hobby exnayed, or severely curtailed in the amount of time spent doing said hobby. When I tell people (much more well off then me) how much I spend on racing a year, it makes their jaws hit the floor. And I barely friekin' race!

I agree in principle with you. Of course we should do everything as safely as possible in a reasonable manner! But as I have been hammering home to anyone that will listen, to someone, somewhere, that $1k is the final straw where it doesn't matter what that money represents, the end result is someone NOT competing.

FIA seats, belt rules, HANS devices, cage updates, new helmet regs, and the list goes on. In the past decade, the price of simply getting out on stage, irrelevant of any other variables, has gone up by $3-5k when you factor in costs to car prep that are mandated AND safety equipment for two individuals in the car.

I'm not saying that the things mandated are or are not worth it. Again, I'm just saying that people's wages have not rose at the same rate to match the additional expense.
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Matt Bobyn
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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 11:32AM
Agreed about the expenses. And I'm not sure mandating it is the way to go, just make people aware of the possible consequences. I agree a grand is a lot, but how much did you spend driving to the states and buying race fuel?

Don't replace your seats pro actively, but when they hit that age where CARS magically decided they're junk I'd consider head winged seats.

And Adam, stop telling your spouse how much racing costs. I prefer to be mysteriously poor in her eyes. Works well-ish.grinning smiley
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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 11:33AM
Something that can not be overemphasized in this the discussion in this discussion is the value of strengthening the muscles in your neck, chest, back, and shoulders that are responsible for holding your head up. A strong core will also make a difference in how you feel after a crash.

I see this more with friends that ride motorcycles and complain about sore necks after a long day on the trail. Helmets even fancy ones are heavy and bouncing around wearing one is hard on your body if you don't prepare for it.



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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 12:09PM
Quote
Matt Bobyn
Don't replace your seats pro actively, but when they hit that age where CARS magically decided they're junk I'd consider head winged seats.
Matt: It was actually the FIA that decided the seats were Junk at 5 years, and CARS has extended that to 10 years, despite seeing a report from the MSA that showed that 5 year old seats were clearly compromised.



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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 12:37PM
this is the seat i really want to use
http://www.mastercraftsafety.com/performance-seats/racing-seats/3g.html



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HiTempguy
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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 12:52PM
Quote
Matt Bobyn
Agreed about the expenses. And I'm not sure mandating it is the way to go, just make people aware of the possible consequences. I agree a grand is a lot, but how much did you spend driving to the states and buying race fuel?

Not much. My costs are covered when I do these things, a barrel of the fuel I bought is substantially cheaper than anything I would have paid outright in Canada smiling smiley I can justify race fuel at the prices I typically end up paying, as premium (when we aren't at a low in fuel prices which happens in winter) is typically close to $1.50+/L. I would actually run pump fuel right now, but a retune would cost $1k (minimum) and there is the variability of pump fuel to take into consideration. If I was buying VP @ $825 a barrel for MS109? FAWK NO! Nope nope nope nope nope.

Oh hey, [redacted][/redacted] (what I consider) substantially cheaper? Now if only I could find a western Canadian competitor to sponsor...

Quote

Don't replace your seats pro actively, but when they hit that age where CARS magically decided they're junk I'd consider head winged seats.

I completely agree. Since we now operate with a fixed amount of years a seat is rated good for, $ for $ (if you are competing more than once or twice a year), brand new seats are the way to go. In that case, a winged seat isn't THAT much more.

Quote

And Adam, stop telling your spouse how much racing costs. I prefer to be mysteriously poor in her eyes. Works well-ish.grinning smiley

The girlfriend has been quite explicit in that I don't get to cut short race time, even though starting the new business will take away vacation time. She's the best (and it's why I date her) smileys with beer I also make sure to take her places once or twice a year (her first time to Mexico this Christmas for two weeks, 5 star resort/condo complex) so part of the rally budget I have includes the costs of keeping the significant other happy winking smiley

Edit-
Quote
Morison
Matt: It was actually the FIA that decided the seats were Junk at 5 years, and CARS has extended that to 10 years, despite seeing a report from the MSA that showed that 5 year old seats were clearly compromised.

Link to said report? smiling smiley



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2014 12:58PM by HiTempguy.
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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 01:53PM
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=MSA+stage+rally+seat+report

or

http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/news/Stage_Rally_seats_report_Sept_2013.pdf



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NoCoast
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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 02:24PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
*Everything is all relative...perhaps compared to Arab oil sheik princes we are a tough breed, but relative to many other Western countries we are spoiled whiners. Usually only their upper classes whine as piteously as is the norm here, especially younger guys...

You're a spoiled whiner.
What are you basing your declaration of compared to other Western countries? Travel in the 70s? You might be surprised at how soft most westerners are.



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NoCoast
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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 02:49PM
Interestingly, from the MSA report:
With a wet lay up process it is considered very unlikely that a seat will be produced that is totally "flawless".

I sold some seats to Tony Peto, ProADV ones. The second seat had damage to the tight radius that goes from the shoulder to the head restraint. It did appear to be a flaw in manufacturing. It's an area that is probably nearly impossible to get out of a mold without a minor amount of damage. Inspection of 3-4 other ProADV seats showed similar issues, though none as bad as the one returned by Tony. We concluded that it was probably a spot that had no structural importance or strength so they were willing to have a certain amount of defect from the factory in that spot.



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NoCoast
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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 02:50PM
The Pro2000 seat that I use in the Chumpcar and previously in the Merkur was previously in the Audi hill climb car and before that in an Audi S2 rally car. Thing is probably 15-16 years old at this point and due to be retired.



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NoCoast
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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 03:03PM
Do we conclude that tube frame seats are the safest way for long term rallying use?



Grant Hughes
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