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Rally seats

Posted by NoCoast 
wvonkessler
Wilson von Kessler
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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 03:32PM
Quote
tdrrally
my question is why does nasa rallysport require fia seats?

Because at the time the rule was adopted - which was when NRS published its first ruleset, there was no requirement in rally for certification of seats - simply a requirement by the SCCA that seats be fixed back, which could let folks use all sorts of abominations in their cars, including such fine products as these:



(Don't laugh, I saw them used in more than one rally car)

The FIA provided a true certification based upon testing for minimum threshold of safety, was widely used within the racing seat industry, and especially so in the rally realm.



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2014 03:33PM by wvonkessler.
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tdrrally
edward mucklow
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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 06:56PM
Quote
wvonkessler
Quote
tdrrally
my question is why does nasa rallysport require fia seats?

Because at the time the rule was adopted - which was when NRS published its first ruleset, there was no requirement in rally for certification of seats - simply a requirement by the SCCA that seats be fixed back, which could let folks use all sorts of abominations in their cars, including such fine products as these:



(Don't laugh, I saw them used in more than one rally car)

The FIA provided a true certification based upon testing for minimum threshold of safety, was widely used within the racing seat industry, and especially so in the rally realm.

would it be possible to get a waiver for an other seat?
from other sanctioning bodies like score or the like



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heymagic
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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 09:05PM
NASA only requires FIA seats for NRS logged cars, not for RA logged cars.


I'm sure there are great seats that aren't FIA approved but I would be careful on what I bought. Fleabay clones maybe not so much. Something used in SCORE or similar heck ya. I will still personally look at winged seats. Depends on the seats. I sat in some that the wings were low enough to press my shoulders. I'm not tall but pretty stocky. Skinny butt and big shoulders and chest. Seats (and helmets) are so iffy on the fit..and the fit is critical really to both comfort and safety.

After my above mentioned Datsun roll a couple friends went together at Xmas and bought me a Kevlar based Simpson (maybe Bell ..been a few decades) helmet. OMG was that thing light compared to the normal old Bell I had. Quality helmets are really a consideration in my book.

Irregardless of one's personal opinion on the winged/non-winged seat I'll put forth a couple things to think about. We race fairly small cars, during a roll or side impact you will very likely hit the cage, window, B pillar and or your partners helmet. The farther your head travels before impact the greater the impact and more cranial damage as well as neck muscle, tendon and vertebrae damage. Distance usually increases speed and force, think shove versus punch. Maybe the ping pong thing can be reduced with tighter wings, maybe it is a bigger risk..I doubt the latter but I don't know. All of this safety stuff gets weighed ..risk against cost against effectiveness. Rally forever has tended to set a minimum standard and some people still fuss. Just like the padding thing, or misplaced header bars or 1/2 laterals that are too far inward. We continually gain insight into the actual damage done to brains by impacts. Damage may take years to show up..look at Ali for a great example. Brilliant mind, amazing athlete and a horrible demise to Parkinsons. It's your head and sooner or later it will get bumped. I don't have a good answer on what you should do effectively protect it, but do the best you can and hope like hell it works.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 09:10PM
Gene---nobody thinks in terms of years. It was 30-35 years and a decrease in pysical condition before the years of lawn darting my head into the ground showed serious effects...hints for 15 before but dismissed as overwork..

Can't get people to think, much less think ahead.



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heymagic
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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 10:17PM
Ya, you're actually a bit lucky the damage was repairable also or at least improvable. Any suspicions that arthritis will follow? I've had that off and on since childhood. Sucks.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Rally seats
October 09, 2014 11:12PM
Quote
heymagic
Ya, you're actually a bit lucky the damage was repairable also or at least improvable. Any suspicions that arthritis will follow? I've had that off and on since childhood. Sucks.

Both sides of the fambly, and early for them..me, since there were so many broken bones, ripped ligaments, torn cartilages all over the place BUT I was in significantly better shape than average---and the whole nature of my existence--AND the character trait i admired most was endurance---I never noticed the rheumatoid stuff....till after some of the spine shit was rebuilt and that pain disappeared---then I noticed... right should, right hip, wrist on right (previously broke both bones at the wrist....
Every day wifey is off we go for long walks at good pace.. usually around 1h 45m or more..., feel much better after...



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Doivi Clarkinen
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Re: Rally seats
October 10, 2014 04:32AM
I'm 6'5" and most winged seats don't work for me. My shoulders get stuck between the wings and it's kind of hard to steer. The only winged seat that I've sat in that actually fit was an XL Racetech but that was pretty expensive and at the time the XL version wasn't FIA certified. Maybe it has been since then, I dunno.
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tdrrally
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Re: Rally seats
October 10, 2014 07:06AM
Quote
tdrrally
this is the seat i really want to use
this seat has shoulder wings and is designed for racing

http://www.mastercraftsafety.com/performance-seats/racing-seats/3g.html
last time i spoke tho master craft they told me the seat was fia approvable but they did not want to pay the fia. i don't blame them for that at



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X Monâ„¢
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Re: Rally seats
October 10, 2014 08:17AM
About the ping pong...

Being one of the foolish folks who prefers to sit on the correct side of the car, I've had an opportunity to sit in a bunch of the differnet seats out there. Of all of those, the only wing seats that seem to fit well are the RaceTech XLs, the original OMP HTE 400, and the Momo XLs. I'm 5'11, but blame my birthing hips for lack of fitmet into the "manlier" "petite" European driver model sized carbon fiber buckets.

I've not sat in the OMPs at speed, but have in the RaceTechs and Momos. At Black River this year, I ran a the Momo for the first time in our GC Subaru, and had a moment of ping-pong as well due to the undulation of the road [read L5/kick R6/kick L5-/jump]. While I don't specifically remember the level of padding on the RaceTech, having run RWV and Sandblast with them, I don't remember the ping-pong being an issue. At ESPR, the same Momo was in an E46 M3, where we saw no issues throughout both days.

For the Momo, there's somewhere between an inch and an inch and a half to each side of my XL Peltor G78, so we're not talking a ton of range of motion nor time to build up the p. That said, the event was signifigant enough to make me take metal pause as my head prepared to play pumpkin chunkin, and then realize that perhaps I should keep reading the story book I had in my lap.

Sans more padding [moar is more betterer, right?] to change the Youngs Modulus of the side of the seat, and thereby reduce the ping-pong, I don't know what I'd change. However, I'm not so sure the ping-pong is a function of hitting one side and rebounding, so much as the car itself seeing high +/- roll rates through the event. I suppose more stage mileage will tell, but first we need to put a motor back together after playing melt the piston.
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stgallagher
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Re: Rally seats
October 10, 2014 09:07AM
Master Craft told me the same thing a year or so ago about not wanting to pay the fee.



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heymagic
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Re: Rally seats
October 10, 2014 10:40AM
In addition to the different heights issue I wonder if the spacing on the wings needs looked at. Maybe just adding wings isn't the total answer. I've noticed in the past some WRC cars with a very wide spaced helmet wing. I would guess big budget pro teams like that would tend to get a more effective item. I've noticed padding or foam added to some of those seats right to the Bpillar or window, must be to start deceleration sooner. The wings spread out would be possibly less likely to ping pong and there as a last resort item. Maybe the inside wings could be offset more to hinder ping ponging. That would make a left and right seat so manufactures would need more inventory and they hate that.

I don't think wings should come into play on a rally road, they should just be there. Maybe you hit one once in a while but no ping pong while still rallying, only when the shit hits the fan. I can see it being a bit different in the desert stuff as their range of motion is a bit (well lot) more. We need to be able to see out of the damned cars in traffic and since a rally is 1/2 to 2/3 transits that has to be considered. We don't have spotters and aren't all going the same way. Tight wings would likely be a wrong answer then.

Cars with the main hoop to 1/2 lateral bar could have that area modified to be a wing of sorts. A bit of sheet steel or carbon fiber and some of that good sheet foam padding. The inside area could be dealt with by those nets and offsetting the seats from each other.

One issue I've noticed with some combinations is you can't hardly get in or out of the cars. Between the wings, 1/2lat support, A pillar support, door bar and steering wheel it gets stoopid tight sometimes. The Sube wagon that Eric Lyden built was one of those. I don't know how he got in or out. Must be a tall skinny thing because I could barely make it work without a helmet on.
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imnotcrazy
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Re: Rally seats
October 10, 2014 12:20PM
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heymagic
NASA only requires FIA seats for NRS logged cars, not for RA logged cars.
How does the CARS 10 years apply (Yea, I could dig in the rule book, but its a simple question easily answered here by those in the know)? Only to CARS log booked cars or to any car running one of their events?



Don Kennedy
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tdrrally
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Re: Rally seats
October 10, 2014 12:33PM
a ten year rule for fia seats would help with cost in a big way



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Re: Rally seats
October 10, 2014 01:10PM
Quote
imnotcrazy
Quote
heymagic
NASA only requires FIA seats for NRS logged cars, not for RA logged cars.
How does the CARS 10 years apply (Yea, I could dig in the rule book, but its a simple question easily answered here by those in the know)? Only to CARS log booked cars or to any car running one of their events?
At present, CARS measures competitor and vehicle safety gear based on the license being used by the driver. (Canadian residents MUST run on a CARS license)
So, if you have a RA license and are running on a 'permit to compete' in Canada, your NASA logbooked car, and your personal safety gear, would have to meet RA standards.



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MattP
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Re: Rally seats
October 10, 2014 01:20PM
Stu didn't have winged seats in the Subaru ,when I recovered it I took a look at his helmet there were at least 2 big strikes from the cage to it. Even if you have winged seats if the belts aren't properly fitted and damn tight you will still bounce around like a demented hula girl.



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