Relative speed

#125 was pretty cool to watch

#651 not very exciting to watch.

Mr #199 ? losses the drift near the end of the 1st turn we see in camera . IMO #125 took those 2 turns better, and looked better while doing it..

but ya you can hear lots of "is that Travis is that ? oh its Travis ! yeaaaah derp derp! me see famous person! " lol well maybe that's not an exact quote ....

267 was even kind of fun to watch..

Also sometimes speed is totally relative... this turns reminds of me rally cross. where if watch from a safe point on the course , it looks amazingly SLOW, and doesn't make any sense why its fun.

hop in a car and it feels amazingly FAST, it totally feels like some turns are taken at the limit .. but from outside the car even those turns don't look quick. meh

Keith, thanks for posting that view point on related stage speeds. I think that is a good way of looking at it rather than comparing stage times. Like breaking down lots of big problems if gives you a smaller easier to evaluate chunk. Rather than focusing on the big picture of why was he 6 minutes faster than me focus on the little picture of can I go 1 sec faster per mile this time through.

If it makes you feel any better, Gene, I always thought your 510 was a much hotter spec than that...

This thread is a bunch of stirring the pot bullshit Morrison and reflects your incessant infantilism.

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"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain

He did stir the pot a bit and it certainly wasn't needed, but I do it once in a while so I can't find much fault but wished it didn't happen.

Here are some online pics of some of us at that event: http://vintagenwmotorsport.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/1986-norwester-pro-rally/ . Scroll down to the night shots ...#28 Grant Whiting and Ray Damitio in the RX3 and next was #29 my old 510 . Whiting put 4 minutes on me and finished 2nd. I expected that whenever we ran. The RX3 just had more power and Grant was a bit crazier than I ever was. I beat him on a single stage every now and then...Spider Lake was one. Grant came over, shook my hand and said I was a crazy SOB on that stage.

Whatever the secret mileage was on that regional...3 cars (very different cars) were on the same minute at the front. 2 cars were a bit behind and then another gap. That was pretty typical back in the day here. I won my first overall in Canada in that old Datsun, I think we had a 10 minute lead over 2nd place..enough my co-driver (Kasey Qvale) refigured our in time several times. I couldn't believe it myself.

Later on when I got the 300hp RX7 I learned to drive fast but really I'm a tidy, quick driver. There is a difference . I don't like fast most of the time...

The only lesson I can think of is to really drive your own race, its always good to try and do better, get a real target and aim for it. Several of us really fought it out back then, we were all good friends and pushed each other a lot. It was great fun. Every one of us bought it hard at one point or another. You've never lived until you've thrown a rally car away at 80 or 100 mph.

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wvonkessler
This thread is a bunch of stirring the pot bullshit Morrison and reflects your incessant infantilism.

Compared to some posts by others you choose to call me out for stirring the pot?

Even JVL caught the meta message that if you are going to compare performance, use a measure that means something tangible, and understand what it means.

Maybe you want to find fault with me for using some data that was being veiwed with some level of controversy in another thread... fine. I'll 'own' that as seeming to be pot stirring... but it wasn't near as ill intentioned as you seem to want to believe.

Now, I was using the average speeds presented by John, and haven't looked any deeper into the data. But... here's a broader picture of that data, looking at Sec/mile.

Slower than Buffum
Sheppard: 7 sec/mile or 4.3 sec/k
Gene: 15.8 sec/mile or 9.8 sec/k
JV: 19.6 sec/mile 12.1 sec/k

Slower than Sheppard
Gene: 8.7 sec/mile or 5.4 sec/k
JV: 12.5 sec/mile or 7.8 sec/k

for shits and giggles I looked at a single stage from LSPR
Higgins avg: 69.34
top 2wd avg: 60.25
10th oa avg: 58.06
top BSpec: 45.96

Back from Higgins:
Top 2wd: 7.8 sec/mile /4.8 sec/k
10th: 10.0 sec/mile /6.3 sec/k
BSpec: 26.4 sec/mile /16.4 sec/k

Back from top 2wd
10th: 2.3 sec/mile /1.4 sec/k
BSpec: 18.6 sec/mile /11.5 sec/k

Back from 10th
BSpec: 16.3 sec/mile /10.1 sec/k

So, on that stage, John was about 6 sec/mile better compared to Sheppard than the BSpec car was to the fastest 2wd car.

I've been watching sec/k pace for about a decade. I can tell you that 1sec/k is about the spread of most driving windows. In other words, you can push and get 1sec/k (1.6sec/mi) on most days on stage. Beyond that is asking for a fairly big change in pace.

I've also looked at a variety of stage (quickly, not in precise detail) and have figured out that in the events I've looked at there was about 10 corners per KM. (This will vary, of course) So, all you really need is to be consistently 1/10 of a second faster through each corner and you'll be a minimum of a sec/k faster overall... (likely more) But, that 1/10th of a second isn't that easy to find consistently.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

There's actually some good knowledge in this thread .. (i thinks) :p

kind of a double great point by Gene ... run your own rally , we hear it all the time but its good to remember. and pushing harder against your friends.. I like that, maybe i'll start pushing harder when the car 1 spot up or down of me is a friend.

also the seconds / mile pacing thing... really good way to compare stage performance. better than the total time separating 2 drivers by the finish ..

Quote
A1337STI
kind of a double great point by Gene ... run your own rally

Absolutely.
The pace comparison works great when comparing to your own times too!
It can also give you small 'victories' that you might not otherwise get when you do the comparison with other teams. If you're normally 4 sec/mile slower than the local leader, and you run an event 3 sec/mile slower... you know you dun good.

My best performances have always come when trying to run 'our best' not when we're trying to catch someone or stay ahead of someone. Conversely, one of by biggest crashes came when we were trying to stay ahead of someone.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

I have come to the conclusion that the only person that'll beat me and the only person I can beat is...ME. I have no control over anyone else in the rally, other than me. If I can be consistant gain that magical 1sec/km I will be more than happy, damn it even .5 will be a win. I will look at the times from Rocky next week and compare. That is of course I make it past the first day!!

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Yes, it's a Ranger.
Xr4Ti, it is rwd and was made in Germany.

Looking at relative speed, here's another interesting perspective setter from across the pond this weekend:

Ken Block is running Spain, his first WRC outing this year IIRC, and only his third(?) rally of the year. Yes, he's over 4 minutes behind the leader at the end of the second day... but in terms of his actual pace:
2.11 sec/km behind Ogier, the event leader
1.81 sec/km behind Hirvonen in the Works version of what he's driving
1.70 sec/km behind Kubica, presumably in a similar 'customer' car.
(Disclosure: Simple average pace gap over the 7 stages using total numbers, not stage by stage detail)

The 'best of the rest' in the RA events are running in excess of 4sec/k behind the winners, with the 'fast' pack closer to 7 sec/k behind.
(Disclosure: Quickly looked at a couple of 100AW stages for a trend... but far from comprehensive.)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

BUT LOL HE'S HORRIBLE WHAT HE CRASHES SO MUCH DUH CAN ONLY DO IT WHEN HE HAS MULTIPLETAKES BRO.

Quote
Morison
The 'best of the rest' in the RA events are running in excess of 4sec/k behind the winners, with the 'fast' pack closer to 7 sec/k behind.
(Disclosure: Quickly looked at a couple of 100AW stages for a trend... but far from comprehensive.)

Very interesting stats Keith.

I wonder what would happen if you stuck Mr. Yeoman in a VSC car prepped to Higgins' spec? At the end of the day, all of the cars in the WRC are essentially "spec" cars competing on a similiar level... the same can not be said for national events in North America.

Quote
HiTempguy

Quote
Morison
The 'best of the rest' in the RA events are running in excess of 4sec/k behind the winners, with the 'fast' pack closer to 7 sec/k behind.
(Disclosure: Quickly looked at a couple of 100AW stages for a trend... but far from comprehensive.)

Very interesting stats Keith.

I wonder what would happen if you stuck Mr. Yeoman in a VSC car prepped to Higgins' spec? At the end of the day, all of the cars in the WRC are essentially "spec" cars competing on a similiar level... the same can not be said for national events in North America.

I still don't think yeoman is anywhere in the ball park of higgins same car or not. I'd be more interested in L'estage.

Quote
HiTempguy
I wonder what would happen if you stuck Mr. Yeoman in a VSC car prepped to Higgins' spec?

What makes you think his car isn't at that level of spec? My guess is that in all areas that matter, Yeoman's car is 'close enough.' That said, I haven't had a good look at the car so would be happy to be corrected.

Quote
HiTempguy
At the end of the day, all of the cars in the WRC are essentially "spec" cars competing on a similiar level... the same can not be said for national events in North America.

You'd think so, but there was a blog a while ago by Antony Warmbold that strongly suggested there was a difference between the cars from the works side of the floor and the customer side of the floor.

I'd also say that at that level... effectively taking a year off is probably worth a sec/k.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2014 12:44PM by Morison.

Another interesting point...
Leo is running only 1.53 sec/k behind Drive DMack leader Tom Cave. (Also the fastes R2 car there)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.