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Notes from scratch.

Posted by BobOfTheFuture 
BobOfTheFuture
Rob Russo
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Notes from scratch.
February 17, 2015 11:14AM
So, WMWR doesn't have jemba notes.
This is my 3rd event as a navigator, And I've never had to make them from scratch.

Any advice on how to best go about this?

I searched, and found a rambling thread, arguing about tape on a steering wheel... smiling smiley



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Towona
Tony P
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Re: Notes from scratch.
February 17, 2015 11:49AM
record video and audio of your recce passes, for review/revision later



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KTurner
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Re: Notes from scratch.
February 17, 2015 11:57AM
write down what the driver says and then write the correct note beneath it. old thread with some info: http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,69080



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Robert Culbertson
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Re: Notes from scratch.
February 17, 2015 12:52PM
I am an incredibly noob navigator, I'm actually the service guy that got thrown into a car and just ended up there. Find a co-driver with lots of experience and ask them questions on notes before recce.
-The tape on the wheel is to keep the driver consistent. Sometimes you will have to call them out on it, but that's a good thing. But seriously, let all the 2s be 2s and the 5s be 5s. Don't adjust them for speed. They should be an indicator of the radius of the turn. Use modifiers to help with short/long/tightens >/ opens</cut/no cut (NC).
-Work out how short distances will be called/noted before hand. Then make your own symbols/short hand scribbles to make those. Discuss how long, meandering sections should be called. This can get hairy, especially at night if you don't call every corner and straight... with less info, it's easier to get lost/off on the notes.
-Write BIG! I cannot stress this enough. I have the tendency to write to small, and this just creates more opportunities to get lost in your scribbles. Shoot for 6-8 lines per page, and maybe 5 instructions per line.
-Write in pencil and then retrace with a sharpie. Old fashioned wood pencils tend to not have the lead break as much as mechanical pencils do. Bring a few sharpened extras and a pencil sharpener as well.
-Record odo readings and instruction numbers. This incredibly helpful in finding your place when/if you get lost.

The more info the better, just make sure it's accurate info smiling smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2015 02:46PM by Robert Culbertson.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Notes from scratch.
February 17, 2015 01:42PM
If as some people suggest that the number is intended to coney to the driver what the ROAD does then using numbers adds one layer of interpretation and translation..

Most words are 'codes' for a 'referant' . the word shoe means the thing on my (or your or sombody's feet for example...

5 refers to IIIII or some group or whatever so somebody calls a "5 L" to me I have the expectation to come around a corner and see:


IF the number is intended to represent or refer to the nature of the road, then it is replacing WORDS that most people have had in the heads since 4-6 years old...

Sweep Left:



Or some equivalent conveys to the drive an immediate idea.....

Not an abtract concept that must be translated into a idea of the referant..

Of course 2 things work against the logic of this.
A) we talking Merikuhns and of all the Western World, Merikuhns seem most rigidly stuck in only speaking in abstract ideas
cool smiley the desire to imitate what you see on videos and video games seems overwhelming to the point of we see people with virtually zero experience or only experience at speeds easily 1/2 of where notes might be helpful fiercely debating the pureness and righteousness of the "1-2-3-4-5-6" system....and then go "derp!" when somebody says with the same assuredness that they have "The number should indicate how hard you can drive the corner, so a 6 means absoklutely full down smashing the pedal, even if its a relatively slow corner if you can take it FULL GAS call it a six"

"Absolute" (absolutely flat out)
"Flat" (flat out)
Sweep (opens or closes or long)
90 (including L or R at T)
Acute

And hairpin jammed in for the one time in 3-5 years we actually have a hairpin...

Add "maybe" when unsure if its a "sweep righ opens maybe"---and when you do it and it WAS a sweep right opens--you scratch out the maybe for next time..

Simpler the better
Direct into the brain, not "code-words" for things we have excellent words for already.


The absurdity of code words and the drive to imitate is easy to demonstarte.

If ordinary words are somehow insuficient to transmit information, then ANY word should be able to fill the role

Ancient provinces could be agreed on since they merely represent an abstract idea..

"Pannonia Right into Scythian L 400, Thrace 3 200..."and on and on.

Real helpful.

Whatever you wanna do, just be sure what you are trying to do..convey information clearly and directly, or play Walter Mittyesque games.



John Vanlandingham
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2015 01:57PM by john vanlandingham.
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czwalga
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Re: Notes from scratch.
February 17, 2015 02:11PM
I've never wrote my own pace notes.... except for maybe some practice stuff.


But you're a co-driver, my opinion would be write what the driver tells you to write. It's what he sees in his head that's important, not what you see. I know there can be some teamwork involved, but that would take some serious trust with lots of experience together. Maybe some people are different.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Notes from scratch.
February 17, 2015 02:18PM
Quote
czwalga
I've never wrote my own pace notes.... except for maybe some practice stuff.


But you're a co-driver, my opinion would be write what the driver tells you to write. It's what he sees in his head that's important, not what you see. I know there can be some teamwork involved, but that would take some serious trust with lots of experience together. Maybe some people are different.

No that is 100% correct....It is the allegedly dim-bulb driver that NEEDS the info coming in in the manner he wants it....
It always drove me nuts with folks who had done one or 2 events and they'd say "Well I always call things klike..."
No you call it like I ask...

For many though the thing about what I refer to above is true. Driver says---because he knows nothing else since all he's seen on TV or You-tube is a bunch young pups blabbering 3L 5R blah blah..
But when he thinks about how abstract it is, and how little experience he has and the simplicity of WORDS several have re-thunk-en what they initially thunk-ed.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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Robert Culbertson
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Re: Notes from scratch.
February 17, 2015 02:33PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Quote
czwalga
I've never wrote my own pace notes.... except for maybe some practice stuff.


But you're a co-driver, my opinion would be write what the driver tells you to write. It's what he sees in his head that's important, not what you see. I know there can be some teamwork involved, but that would take some serious trust with lots of experience together. Maybe some people are different.

No that is 100% correct....It is the allegedly dim-bulb driver that NEEDS the info coming in in the manner he wants it....
It always drove me nuts with folks who had done one or 2 events and they'd say "Well I always call things klike..."
No you call it like I ask...

For many though the thing about what I refer to above is true. Driver says---because he knows nothing else since all he's seen on TV or You-tube is a bunch young pups blabbering 3L 5R blah blah..
But when he thinks about how abstract it is, and how little experience he has and the simplicity of WORDS several have re-thunk-en what they initially thunk-ed.

I'm with this 100%. Do what the driver asks. But since most tend to follow the number scheme, for whatever reason, that's what I have used. The benefit with the numbers, is it's an easy way to keep the driver consistent with how the driver calls a corner/section.
I'm all for new (to me) styles of notes though smiling smiley
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Andrew_Frick
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Re: Notes from scratch.
February 17, 2015 02:35PM
As a navigator the most important thing is to get the notes to the drivers liking.

The most common method is to have the driver call the corners as they see them the first time through the stage. The next time you read them back and make corrections as needed. Then if your hand writing sucks rewrite the notes after recce so you can read them.

The tape and stuff on the steering wheel is mechanisms to help the driver call the right number the first time. As John said it does not really matter what system you use as long as it works for the driver. Numbers, Letters, descriptions are all driver preference.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2015 02:36PM by Andrew_Frick.
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alkun
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Re: Notes from scratch.
February 17, 2015 03:14PM
writing notes is super fun, but exhausting. To me the toughest part is the distances between instructions.

Make the driver call the notes, write it all down, edit/clean up heavily when you get back to the hotel. Obviously the most important is to clearly anounce the big hazzards; deceptive corners, huge ditches, sasquatch crossings...

and go to the art store and get one (or two) of these, they rule.

http://www.dickblick.com/products/alvin-pro-matic-lead-holder/?clickTracking=true&wmcp=pla&wmcid=items&wmckw=20626-1001&gclid=CKf2z43z6cMCFc1gfgodP7sA5g



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2015 03:20PM by alkun.
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BobOfTheFuture
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Re: Notes from scratch.
February 18, 2015 05:39AM
Quote
Everybody
Write what the driver says to write

This is the drivers first event. And due to mechanical issues, this is going to be the first time we are at speed in the car. So the additional info to avoid firey death is very much appreciated.


Al, What's the shorthand for Sasquatch crossing?



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2015 06:03AM by BobOfTheFuture.
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czwalga
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Re: Notes from scratch.
February 18, 2015 07:19AM
Quote
BobOfTheFuture
Quote
Everybody
Write what the driver says to write

This is the drivers first event. And due to mechanical issues, this is going to be the first time we are at speed in the car. So the additional info to avoid firey death is very much appreciated.


Al, What's the shorthand for Sasquatch crossing?


In that case he'll be ignoring you 90% of the event and just trying to not wreck hahaha.


I'd still just write whatever he tells you... maybe having him watch some video of STPR stage 1 and 3; and try and write some notes. Maybe you'll have something to base recce off of. 95% of WM hasn't changed over the years except a few spots.
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Re: Notes from scratch.
February 18, 2015 07:41AM
Quote
BobOfTheFuture
Quote
Everybody
Write what the driver says to write

This is the drivers first event. And due to mechanical issues, this is going to be the first time we are at speed in the car. So the additional info to avoid firey death is very much appreciated.
?

Try to keep things simple then, no pluses and minuses, focus on the gotchas and cautions. WM stages are pretty fun.



-KTurner
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BobOfTheFuture
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Re: Notes from scratch.
February 18, 2015 11:42AM
I have the book from STPR 2014. I figured they'd be pretty different, what with the snow..



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MConte05
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Re: Notes from scratch.
February 18, 2015 12:17PM
Corner grades don't change with the surface. Just how you attack it. I wouldn't attack an L3 on glare ice like I would on dry gravel, however the corner itself would still be the same.

The notes from 2014 should be at least a good basic starting point.
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