Rally Chat
Don\
Welcome! Log In Register

Advanced

Avg Speed/max speed for east coast rallies

Posted by Paddy1337 
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Professional Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,994

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Avg Speed/max speed for east coast rallies
June 04, 2015 05:54PM
What you fail to realise is you at this point have no business telling anybody that they are speaking bullshit about anything related to rally..

Maybe the difference is what each person means when they say know and believe...
You "educate' yourself and I gues, but whatever---think you now "know" something..

And so far I haven't seen a glimmer that you know sweet fuck all.

But sure are cocky...



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
ALS FTW
Don K. Oates
Ultra Moderator
Location: Strathmore, AB
Join Date: 01/19/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 137

Rally Car:
looking


Re: Avg Speed/max speed for east coast rallies
June 04, 2015 06:06PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
What you fail to realise is you at this point have no business telling anybody that they are speaking bullshit about anything related to rally.

Then what would you call it when you say 'Fastest Focus in Canada that regularly wins 2wd overall' when the driver's CARS speed factor puts him well slower than a Focus in western Canada AND behind 5 other regular 2wd drivers in the west.

Yes, I have a lot to learn about the sport, and am more than willing to learn, but sometimes obvious BS is obvious. Sad thing is that the only reason I found out this was BS was by bothering to find out more on my own.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Maybe the difference is what each person means when they say know and believe...
You "educate' yourself and I gues, but whatever---think you now "know" something..
Yah, I fully 'get' that knowing something is a lot more than just reading a bit here and there. It's why I don't think you'll find I've claimed to 'know' much at all here.
I can 'know' what results are listed, that doesn't remotely presume to know what they mean or what led to the results. (Runamuck showed me why the reuslts were whacky at radium, and I accepted and thanked him for explaining... simple, easy, no fuss.)

Quote
john vanlandingham
And so far I haven't seen a glimmer that you know sweet fuck all.
Probably because I'm the first to admit I have plenty to learn. Just don't get all hurt that I'm not turning to you as a sole source of that learning.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
aj_johnson
A.J. Johnson
Senior Moderator
Location: Pendleton OR
Join Date: 01/07/2011
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 1,349

Rally Car:
88 Audi 80


Re: Avg Speed/max speed for east coast rallies
June 04, 2015 06:15PM
60-70 ft lbs of tork and 80-85 mph top speed doesn't seem to slow down the utv's at idaho too much. Cant figure out how to compare utv vs car in the link Anders posted but it seems gearing at the sacrifice of top speed aint gonna hurt unless you get really drastic.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Paddy1337
Tim Patrick
Infallible Moderator
Location: Raleigh, NC
Join Date: 01/26/2011
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 175

Rally Car:
Galant VR-4


Re: Avg Speed/max speed for east coast rallies
June 04, 2015 08:24PM
Now, to get down to utv weight winking smiley
Please Login or Register to post a reply
aj_johnson
A.J. Johnson
Senior Moderator
Location: Pendleton OR
Join Date: 01/07/2011
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 1,349

Rally Car:
88 Audi 80


Re: Avg Speed/max speed for east coast rallies
June 04, 2015 11:34PM
Quote
Paddy1337
Now, to get down to utv weight winking smiley

Looking at torque or HP per lb the open class cars should stomp em. Hell just assume 300 ft lbs of tq and 3k lbs for an open car, and an RZR 1000 weighs in at nearly 1400 dry with under a hundred ft lbs. Shouldn't even be close until you take into account gearing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2015 11:35PM by aj_johnson.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Paddy1337
Tim Patrick
Infallible Moderator
Location: Raleigh, NC
Join Date: 01/26/2011
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 175

Rally Car:
Galant VR-4


Re: Avg Speed/max speed for east coast rallies
June 05, 2015 06:17AM
Because I'm sitting in an airport terminal I have nothing better to do than think about BS...

You think the UTV weight helps or hurts in the turns? At first I felt is help, less weight pulling you wide. But that means less weight pushing the tires into the ground. I'm still thinking when weight is transferred to the important tires, the lightweight utv has an edge in the turn. All that based on nothing but assumptions winking smiley
Please Login or Register to post a reply
KTurner
Kevin Turner
Mega Moderator
Location: Newark, DE
Join Date: 01/27/2006
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 358

Rally Car:
2wd Impreza... dude you should do an sti swap


Re: Avg Speed/max speed for east coast rallies
June 05, 2015 07:48AM
for the utv's maybe it's a smaller vehicle wider road type of thing. 20K for it though ouch.

Figure we average 45-62mph for pretty much all east coast events we've attended and the car gears (powers) out around 110-115 mph. It's not too good for ESPR (which is as posted a little too fast) but good everywhere else. currently considering swapping a .78 5th to a .87 to get there a little quicker too. see transmission #2 Mfactory gearset viewer



-KTurner
Stomp down on the exhilarator and hold on to the wheel.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Professional Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,994

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Avg Speed/max speed for east coast rallies
June 05, 2015 10:10AM
Quote
aj_johnson
Quote
Paddy1337
Now, to get down to utv weight winking smiley

Looking at torque or HP per lb the open class cars should stomp em. Hell just assume 300 ft lbs of tq and 3k lbs for an open car, and an RZR 1000 weighs in at nearly 1400 dry with under a hundred ft lbs. Shouldn't even be close until you take into account gearing.

You are a bad boy. Why stir up things? It'll make some people think, and that hurts..
Stop it.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Robert Culbertson
Robert Culbertson
Mod Moderator
Location: Portland , Or
Join Date: 08/15/2010
Age: Party Animal
Posts: 1,208

Rally Car:
MK2 VW GTI



Re: Avg Speed/max speed for east coast rallies
June 05, 2015 11:59AM
Quote
Paddy1337
Because I'm sitting in an airport terminal I have nothing better to do than think about BS...

You think the UTV weight helps or hurts in the turns? At first I felt is help, less weight pulling you wide. But that means less weight pushing the tires into the ground. I'm still thinking when weight is transferred to the important tires, the lightweight utv has an edge in the turn. All that based on nothing but assumptions winking smiley

This might give you some more fodder while you're waiting in the terminal:

Tire grip, in the most simple form, is based on vertical load. The available tire grip is Fn (normal force) X µ (coefficient of friction). So from a simple point, more weight (vertical load) would equal more grip. But! In a corner, we have radial acceleration to deal with (the sideways force that is needed to actually turn the car is directly related to this radial (centripetal) acceleration. Radial acceleration is (velocity^2)/R. Where R is the radius of the turn in our example.

Since we all know that F=ma, we can see that the more mass we have, the higher the force needed to keep a car in a corner. It is a balance with speed, banking, weight, and the radius of the turn. To some extent, a heavier car may be better, but probably not in most cases. You can find the result with triangle and some simple trig functions (sine, cosine, tangent). Then there's the case of speeding up and slowing down, where weight is a HUGE part in that.

Now this was all done using zero input from individual tire loading, because that's way more difficult if you don't have exact numbers for things (or even remotely close). The above is helpful for approximations since you would be using vehicle weight and the approximate CG location.
When you start looking at individual tire loads and the available restoring grip, you will see that the coefficient of friction rises with vertical load, and then all of a sudden drops off. This is called "over saturation". This can easily be seen with sway bars: the outside tire gets more vertical load transfer by picking up the inside tire. On a car with a bug front bar, you will have a "push" or understeer tendency, mostly due to the outside tire being over saturated and the inside wheel having less vertical load (and grip).

Article on CoF and tires by OptimumG: http://www.optimumg.com/technical/linear-or-non-linear-that-is-the-question/
Okay, back to working with giant metal thingies.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
aj_johnson
A.J. Johnson
Senior Moderator
Location: Pendleton OR
Join Date: 01/07/2011
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 1,349

Rally Car:
88 Audi 80


Re: Avg Speed/max speed for east coast rallies
June 05, 2015 09:02PM
Quote
Robert Culbertson
Quote
Paddy1337
Because I'm sitting in an airport terminal I have nothing better to do than think about BS...

You think the UTV weight helps or hurts in the turns? At first I felt is help, less weight pulling you wide. But that means less weight pushing the tires into the ground. I'm still thinking when weight is transferred to the important tires, the lightweight utv has an edge in the turn. All that based on nothing but assumptions winking smiley

This might give you some more fodder while you're waiting in the terminal:

Tire grip, in the most simple form, is based on vertical load. The available tire grip is Fn (normal force) X µ (coefficient of friction). So from a simple point, more weight (vertical load) would equal more grip. But! In a corner, we have radial acceleration to deal with (the sideways force that is needed to actually turn the car is directly related to this radial (centripetal) acceleration. Radial acceleration is (velocity^2)/R. Where R is the radius of the turn in our example.

Since we all know that F=ma, we can see that the more mass we have, the higher the force needed to keep a car in a corner. It is a balance with speed, banking, weight, and the radius of the turn. To some extent, a heavier car may be better, but probably not in most cases. You can find the result with triangle and some simple trig functions (sine, cosine, tangent). Then there's the case of speeding up and slowing down, where weight is a HUGE part in that.

Now this was all done using zero input from individual tire loading, because that's way more difficult if you don't have exact numbers for things (or even remotely close). The above is helpful for approximations since you would be using vehicle weight and the approximate CG location.
When you start looking at individual tire loads and the available restoring grip, you will see that the coefficient of friction rises with vertical load, and then all of a sudden drops off. This is called "over saturation". This can easily be seen with sway bars: the outside tire gets more vertical load transfer by picking up the inside tire. On a car with a bug front bar, you will have a "push" or understeer tendency, mostly due to the outside tire being over saturated and the inside wheel having less vertical load (and grip).

Article on CoF and tires by OptimumG: http://www.optimumg.com/technical/linear-or-non-linear-that-is-the-question/
Okay, back to working with giant metal thingies.

I haven't had enough beer for that sort of thing robert...
Please Login or Register to post a reply
NoCoast
Grant Hughes
Elite Moderator
Location: Denver, CO
Join Date: 01/11/2006
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 6,740

Rally Car:
Merkur



Re: Avg Speed/max speed for east coast rallies
June 05, 2015 09:23PM
Im gonna go down to basement for another beer.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Robert Culbertson
Robert Culbertson
Mod Moderator
Location: Portland , Or
Join Date: 08/15/2010
Age: Party Animal
Posts: 1,208

Rally Car:
MK2 VW GTI



Re: Avg Speed/max speed for east coast rallies
June 05, 2015 10:02PM
I go drink MOAR beerz and work on rally carz.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
aj_johnson
A.J. Johnson
Senior Moderator
Location: Pendleton OR
Join Date: 01/07/2011
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 1,349

Rally Car:
88 Audi 80


Re: Avg Speed/max speed for east coast rallies
June 06, 2015 01:18AM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Quote
aj_johnson
Quote
Paddy1337
Now, to get down to utv weight winking smiley

Looking at torque or HP per lb the open class cars should stomp em. Hell just assume 300 ft lbs of tq and 3k lbs for an open car, and an RZR 1000 weighs in at nearly 1400 dry with under a hundred ft lbs. Shouldn't even be close until you take into account gearing.

You are a bad boy. Why stir up things? It'll make some people think, and that hurts..
Stop it.

Dont accuse me of thinking, everyone else is drinking. That doesn't hurt.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login