Jay Jay Woodward Junior Moderator Location: Snohomish, WA Join Date: 12/21/2005 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 893 Rally Car: '90 Mazdog Frankenprotege |
I drove my GTX with swaybars at Doo Wop one year, and the next year drove the same car without, and all stage times were improved by more than can be explained by any improvement in driver socalled skill. That's enough for me. My current car has no swaybars. Weight transfer does not reduce grip. It just moves it around. Reduce grip at one end of the car while improving it at the other end. This is one way to stay out of the bushes, if you apply this weight transfer under the right circumstances. If you bind up a car so much that weight transfer does not happen, you reduce the number of ways to get the car to change direction, and thus increase your odds of becoming part of the scenery. As far as lateral xfer, it does not matter. Like Robert said, keeping the wheels on the ground is far more important.
jesus fuck I gotta stop talking about this crap and finish rebuilding the godam car. Jay Woodward Snohomish, WA '90 Mazdog Frankenprotege Chronologically, 46... |
Pete Pete Remner Senior Moderator Location: Cleveland, Ohio Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 2,022 |
A few things you gotta understand. There's suspension weight transfer - what happens when you accelerate along the various axes - and then there is driver weight transfer - what happens when you dab the brakes to load the front tires *momentarily* to get some turn in. Sway bars have zero, zip, zilch, NADA to do with weight transfer. Weight transfer is CG and where the tires are, period. Suspension just determines how much the body rolls and how much of the resistance to roll is from which end of the car. Pete Remner Cleveland, Ohio 1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing) 1978 Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver. |
LexusFman Yengi Lado Mega Moderator Location: Potsdam, NY Join Date: 03/13/2013 Age: Party Animal Posts: 236 Rally Car: I Ain't rich!!!! |
I would drive more but my front tires are economaster supremes worn to shit from said driving so I figured while I wait for some better ones I might as well learn about why I can't hellaflush my car ahahaha
So basically swaybars lift the inside wheels and lifting wheels is bad. |
Pete Pete Remner Senior Moderator Location: Cleveland, Ohio Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 2,022 |
It's not that simple, though... if you make both ends equally stiffer then you won't. Likewise if you make one end really soft then the other end may lift tires if and when it runs out of suspension travel, even if there are no sway bars. Lifting wheels is bad but so is riding at the other end of suspension travel... everything needs to be in a harmony of grip. Pete Remner Cleveland, Ohio 1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing) 1978 Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver. |
Robert Culbertson Out of this dumpster fire Professional Moderator Join Date: 08/15/2010 Posts: 1,236 |
3 main things: -What you mentioned (mostly) -Over loading of the outside tire causing a decrease in grip (tire force actually goes down after a certain amount of vertical load) - Limits articulation (directly relates to first point) |
Robert Culbertson Out of this dumpster fire Professional Moderator Join Date: 08/15/2010 Posts: 1,236 |
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Reamer Jeff Reamer Junior Moderator Location: Marlette, Michigan Join Date: 08/14/2010 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 489 Rally Car: Subaru |
Ive been looking at quite a few rally cars in the past few years. I will say there are a lot more fast rallycars with sway bars then there are with out. not saying you cant be fast with out just going by what ive seen personaly. Ive also noticed the fast cars dont have a hole lot of body roll. im guessing its more shock valving then a big sway bar. So i would run soft sway bars soft springs and lots of rebound to hold the car from having to much roll. But Im not fast so this is all internet fun! I will catch grief but ive never seen a truly fast rallycar with out sway bars on gravel in the last 4 years. Fast being Higgins type speeds not even talking about top 10 WRC cars who also have sway bars.
I know Conte loves no sway bars but Im not sure he wouldnt even be faster if he put them on. He also says his suspension is great yet I watch videos of his car bouncing like a NBA basket ball and his co driver complaining about the hard hits after a jump. I will admit he does put down some good times for what he has for a rallycar. First rally 2013 Rally car type AWD subaru Total rallies as driver 6 Total rally cars built 2 Total rally cars caged 3 Total rally cars repaired from offs 4 Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs Like 31motorsports on FB! Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Ultra Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Many do what they do despite whatever set up is on their cars, not because of it. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Josh Wimpey Josh Wimpey Ultra Moderator Location: VA Join Date: 12/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 649 Rally Car: Sneak the Golf |
My guess is that the cars Jeff is thinking of have super-long travel by club-rally guy standards and this requires much softer springs so the cars would turn-in like trophy trucks if they didn't have bars on them.
____________________________________________________________- One. Class -- 2WD www.quantumrallysport.com http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf |
fliz Chad Eixenberger Professional Moderator Location: Grafton, WI Join Date: 02/01/2007 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 484 Rally Car: 1988 VW Golf #687 |
Josh, I thought you were a fan of swaybars? I never ran them...but I have extremely limited experience with different suspension setups. |
Josh Wimpey Josh Wimpey Ultra Moderator Location: VA Join Date: 12/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 649 Rally Car: Sneak the Golf |
I have never had any need for sway-bars myself but I am not running 14" travel shocks with soft springs either
____________________________________________________________- One. Class -- 2WD www.quantumrallysport.com http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf |
hoche Michel Hoche-Mong Godlike Moderator Location: Campbell, CA Join Date: 02/28/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,156 Rally Car: Golf, Golf, RX-3 |
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MConte05 Matthew Conte Mega Moderator Location: St. Louis, MO Join Date: 06/27/2011 Age: Settling Down Posts: 257 Rally Car: 1991 Subaru Legacy Turbozzzzzz |
I am a fan of no swaybars on my car, that's true. I've tried a race with a smaller rear bar and it was just a bit too oversteery for me. Though maybe one high speed spin at 100AW was enough to deter me. But I wasn't really focused on eyeballing the bar. I also cut the hell out of corners and go into ditches. So at least for now I'll stick with no bars. I've never said my suspension is great, if anything I think it's a bit stiff in the rough stuff, but I like it in the smooth high speed stuff. But I know that it isn't holding me back, my driver skill still is. I'm still pussing out on fast 4's that I should commit to a lot harder, and 5-'s scare me a bit still. Every single race I feel like I improve as a driver, and my equipment isn't holding me back yet. My wife just likes to complain. Especially that shakedown jump. To be fair the second time I hit I even knocked the wind out of myself. Third time I hit it a bit to the left, nice and smooth there. I was just cutting it too far trying to look good for the camera. Otherwise it does handle jumps fairly well, don't know what was up with the Waste Management jump. That's really the only time it's pogo'ed hard. Might have been me letting off beforehand, and just not having the torque getting back on the gas to actually get the nose up. |
LexusFman Yengi Lado Mega Moderator Location: Potsdam, NY Join Date: 03/13/2013 Age: Party Animal Posts: 236 Rally Car: I Ain't rich!!!! |
SOOO I'm putting new tie to ends in my car, and I've decided that FWD + open diff + worn front tires + front sway only is hella gay. Will there be a problem if I rip the thing out? Its an 02 Cavalier (Kill me). I know some cavaliers didn't come with front sways but this is my only car so I don't wanna fuck it up too bad
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RALLYRS Mike Ball Mega Moderator Location: Simi Valley,Ca. Join Date: 07/15/2011 Age: Ancient Posts: 466 Rally Car: Nope...I wish...RWD 2 Door Jeep XJ 4.0 5-spd Dirt-o-cross car(we have no grass!)2.3 ZX3 rallyx car(sold) |
Are you rallycrossing the thing?
Or just a DD? Either way,don't just rip out the sway. Test for yourself. Disconnect and remove the endlinks and tie the bar up(I used 2 per side of those Giant zip ties on the Focus). Then drive it and compare. Yes ..worn tires, 1 wheel drive and a front sway(especially ONLY a front sway bar) on a FWD is usually not your optimum combination for dirt..or paved surfaces for that matter... If you are just DD'ing it..why bother...put some tires on it and drive....or you are bored with the handling find a boneyard rear sway bar and throw it on and either test (disconnecting the front )or leave it alone. ................................................. ..................... Support your Local North American Rally Forum!! While they are still around-and get the hell off Farsebook!! We still have Specialstage & RallyAnarchy. Post up Here: https://rallyanarchy.com/phorum/posting.php and here: https://www.specialstage.com/forums/forum.php |