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Lateral weight transfer??????/

Posted by LexusFman 
Jay
Jay Woodward
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Jay
Re: Lateral weight transfer??????/
June 24, 2015 12:30PM
I drove my GTX with swaybars at Doo Wop one year, and the next year drove the same car without, and all stage times were improved by more than can be explained by any improvement in driver socalled skill. That's enough for me. My current car has no swaybars. Weight transfer does not reduce grip. It just moves it around. Reduce grip at one end of the car while improving it at the other end. This is one way to stay out of the bushes, if you apply this weight transfer under the right circumstances. If you bind up a car so much that weight transfer does not happen, you reduce the number of ways to get the car to change direction, and thus increase your odds of becoming part of the scenery. As far as lateral xfer, it does not matter. Like Robert said, keeping the wheels on the ground is far more important.

jesus fuck I gotta stop talking about this crap and finish rebuilding the godam car.



Jay Woodward
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Pete
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Re: Lateral weight transfer??????/
June 24, 2015 01:07PM
Quote
LexusFman
But if that's the case then why don't all race cars just run super stiff swaybars to control lateral roll instead of caring about roll centers, COG, polar moment of inertia, roll couple etc??? Alot of good setup geniuses seem to prefer little to no swaybar stiffness for rally/drifting, especially on loose surfaces where you'd think maximizing the most of the grip is what its all about???

A few things you gotta understand.

There's suspension weight transfer - what happens when you accelerate along the various axes - and then there is driver weight transfer - what happens when you dab the brakes to load the front tires *momentarily* to get some turn in.

Sway bars have zero, zip, zilch, NADA to do with weight transfer. Weight transfer is CG and where the tires are, period. Suspension just determines how much the body rolls and how much of the resistance to roll is from which end of the car.



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LexusFman
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Re: Lateral weight transfer??????/
June 29, 2015 04:39PM
I would drive more but my front tires are economaster supremes worn to shit from said driving so I figured while I wait for some better ones I might as well learn about why I can't hellaflush my car ahahaha

So basically swaybars lift the inside wheels and lifting wheels is bad.
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Pete
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Re: Lateral weight transfer??????/
June 29, 2015 04:47PM
Quote
LexusFman

So basically swaybars lift the inside wheels and lifting wheels is bad.

It's not that simple, though... if you make both ends equally stiffer then you won't. Likewise if you make one end really soft then the other end may lift tires if and when it runs out of suspension travel, even if there are no sway bars.

Lifting wheels is bad but so is riding at the other end of suspension travel... everything needs to be in a harmony of grip.



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Robert Culbertson
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Re: Lateral weight transfer??????/
June 29, 2015 04:51PM
Quote
LexusFman
I would drive more but my front tires are economaster supremes worn to shit from said driving so I figured while I wait for some better ones I might as well learn about why I can't hellaflush my car ahahaha

So basically swaybars lift the inside wheels and lifting wheels is bad.

3 main things:
-What you mentioned (mostly)
-Over loading of the outside tire causing a decrease in grip (tire force actually goes down after a certain amount of vertical load)
- Limits articulation (directly relates to first point)
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Robert Culbertson
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Re: Lateral weight transfer??????/
June 29, 2015 05:20PM
Quote
Pete
... everything needs to be in a harmony of grip.

Golden right there!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2015 05:43PM by Robert Culbertson.
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Re: Lateral weight transfer??????/
June 29, 2015 05:20PM
Ive been looking at quite a few rally cars in the past few years. I will say there are a lot more fast rallycars with sway bars then there are with out. not saying you cant be fast with out just going by what ive seen personaly. Ive also noticed the fast cars dont have a hole lot of body roll. im guessing its more shock valving then a big sway bar. So i would run soft sway bars soft springs and lots of rebound to hold the car from having to much roll. But Im not fast so this is all internet fun! I will catch grief but ive never seen a truly fast rallycar with out sway bars on gravel in the last 4 years. Fast being Higgins type speeds not even talking about top 10 WRC cars who also have sway bars.

I know Conte loves no sway bars but Im not sure he wouldnt even be faster if he put them on. He also says his suspension is great yet I watch videos of his car bouncing like a NBA basket ball and his co driver complaining about the hard hits after a jump. I will admit he does put down some good times for what he has for a rallycar.



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john vanlandingham
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Re: Lateral weight transfer??????/
June 29, 2015 08:29PM
Quote
Reamer
Ive been looking at quite a few rally cars in the past few years. I will say there are a lot more fast rallycars with sway bars then there are with out. not saying you cant be fast with out just going by what ive seen personaly. Ive also noticed the fast cars dont have a hole lot of body roll. im guessing its more shock valving then a big sway bar. So i would run soft sway bars soft springs and lots of rebound to hold the car from having to much roll. But Im not fast so this is all internet fun! I will catch grief but ive never seen a truly fast rallycar with out sway bars on gravel in the last 4 years. Fast being Higgins type speeds not even talking about top 10 WRC cars who also have sway bars.

I know Conte loves no sway bars but Im not sure he wouldnt even be faster if he put them on. He also says his suspension is great yet I watch videos of his car bouncing like a NBA basket ball and his co driver complaining about the hard hits after a jump. I will admit he does put down some good times for what he has for a rallycar.


Many do what they do despite whatever set up is on their cars, not because of it.



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Josh Wimpey
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Re: Lateral weight transfer??????/
June 30, 2015 12:07PM
My guess is that the cars Jeff is thinking of have super-long travel by club-rally guy standards and this requires much softer springs so the cars would turn-in like trophy trucks if they didn't have bars on them.



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Re: Lateral weight transfer??????/
June 30, 2015 01:33PM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
My guess is that the cars Jeff is thinking of have super-long travel by club-rally guy standards and this requires much softer springs so the cars would turn-in like trophy trucks if they didn't have bars on them.

Josh, I thought you were a fan of swaybars?

I never ran them...but I have extremely limited experience with different suspension setups.
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Josh Wimpey
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Re: Lateral weight transfer??????/
June 30, 2015 04:22PM
I have never had any need for sway-bars myself but I am not running 14" travel shocks with soft springs either



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Re: Lateral weight transfer??????/
June 30, 2015 05:07PM
I use 'em.



Self-righteous douche canoe
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MConte05
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Re: Lateral weight transfer??????/
June 30, 2015 10:10PM
Quote
Reamer
I know Conte loves no sway bars but Im not sure he wouldnt even be faster if he put them on. He also says his suspension is great yet I watch videos of his car bouncing like a NBA basket ball and his co driver complaining about the hard hits after a jump. I will admit he does put down some good times for what he has for a rallycar.

I am a fan of no swaybars on my car, that's true. I've tried a race with a smaller rear bar and it was just a bit too oversteery for me. Though maybe one high speed spin at 100AW was enough to deter me. But I wasn't really focused on eyeballing the bar. I also cut the hell out of corners and go into ditches. So at least for now I'll stick with no bars.

I've never said my suspension is great, if anything I think it's a bit stiff in the rough stuff, but I like it in the smooth high speed stuff. But I know that it isn't holding me back, my driver skill still is. I'm still pussing out on fast 4's that I should commit to a lot harder, and 5-'s scare me a bit still. Every single race I feel like I improve as a driver, and my equipment isn't holding me back yet.

My wife just likes to complain. Especially that shakedown jump. smiling smiley To be fair the second time I hit I even knocked the wind out of myself. Third time I hit it a bit to the left, nice and smooth there. I was just cutting it too far trying to look good for the camera. tongue sticking out smiley Otherwise it does handle jumps fairly well, don't know what was up with the Waste Management jump. That's really the only time it's pogo'ed hard. Might have been me letting off beforehand, and just not having the torque getting back on the gas to actually get the nose up.
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LexusFman
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Re: Lateral weight transfer??????/
July 01, 2015 10:30AM
SOOO I'm putting new tie to ends in my car, and I've decided that FWD + open diff + worn front tires + front sway only is hella gay. Will there be a problem if I rip the thing out? Its an 02 Cavalier (Kill me). I know some cavaliers didn't come with front sways but this is my only car so I don't wanna fuck it up too bad
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RALLYRS
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Re: Lateral weight transfer??????/
July 01, 2015 12:49PM
Are you rallycrossing the thing?

Or just a DD?

Either way,don't just rip out the sway.

Test for yourself.

Disconnect and remove the endlinks and tie the bar up(I used 2 per side of those Giant zip ties on the Focus).

Then drive it and compare.

Yes ..worn tires, 1 wheel drive and a front sway(especially ONLY a front sway bar) on a FWD is usually not your optimum combination for dirt..or paved surfaces for that matter...

If you are just DD'ing it..why bother...put some tires on it and drive....or you are bored with the handling find a boneyard rear sway bar and throw it on and either test (disconnecting the front )or leave it alone.
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