Rally Chat
Don\
Welcome! Log In Register

Advanced

CARS Rally Manufacturer Snapshot

Posted by ElectroTech 
ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
Junior Moderator
Location: Fork Lake, Alberta
Join Date: 06/09/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 312

Rally Car:
1992 Golf


CARS Rally Manufacturer Snapshot
November 12, 2015 07:23PM
Interesting that well over half of the field is Subaru.




Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
Please Login or Register to post a reply
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Elite Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,993

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: CARS Rally Manufacturer Snapshot
November 12, 2015 09:18PM
Down here its been averaging last 15 years around 60-62%

Oddly in some places with huge (by our standards but 1/2 what they had 30 years ago) 120-150 car entries, 60% are Volvos, and less than 3% are Subarus...
And they have clubbies in Golves (and 1 in a 940 Volvo) quicker on stages than some American Gentleman Dubya Arsey Top spec turbo awd Fiesta drivers..

Perchance accident? Correlation? Causation? Really I haven't a clue.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
ALS FTW
Don K. Oates
Mod Moderator
Location: Strathmore, AB
Join Date: 01/19/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 137

Rally Car:
looking


Re: CARS Rally Manufacturer Snapshot
November 13, 2015 12:18AM
Subaru has been a strong supporter of the Canadian Rally Championship - and privateer teams running the championship - for 20 years-ish. This probably has something to do with the numbers being skewed to blue.

At the end of the day, the contingencies from Subaru won't cover the 'extra' money spent on running an O4WD car or event most P4WD cars, but for some... the idea of getting manufacturer support is attractive, and for all it is appreciated.

As to why north american drivers tend to be off the pace of the euros... I'd be more interested in seeing how many events each group drives in a year than trying to link the type of car being driven to the difference. We all know cars don't go fast without talented drivers behind the wheel. Any numbers on that John?
Please Login or Register to post a reply
ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
Junior Moderator
Location: Fork Lake, Alberta
Join Date: 06/09/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 312

Rally Car:
1992 Golf


Re: CARS Rally Manufacturer Snapshot
November 13, 2015 12:44PM
Quote
ALS FTW
Subaru has been a strong supporter of the Canadian Rally Championship - and privateer teams running the championship - for 20 years-ish. This probably has something to do with the numbers being skewed to blue.

At the end of the day, the contingencies from Subaru won't cover the 'extra' money spent on running an O4WD car or event most P4WD cars, but for some... the idea of getting manufacturer support is attractive, and for all it is appreciated.

As to why north american drivers tend to be off the pace of the euros... I'd be more interested in seeing how many events each group drives in a year than trying to link the type of car being driven to the difference. We all know cars don't go fast without talented drivers behind the wheel. Any numbers on that John?
I'd bet the total cost to get on stage plus entry fees are likely contributors. Competition is also a factor, we have such a huge land mass that the fields are small, if everyone was placed into an area the size of one province/state the entry numbers would be higher and stage times lower.



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
Please Login or Register to post a reply
ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
Junior Moderator
Location: Fork Lake, Alberta
Join Date: 06/09/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 312

Rally Car:
1992 Golf


Re: CARS Rally Manufacturer Snapshot
November 13, 2015 01:28PM
Obviously that's not going to happen, so perhaps the best alternative would be to do regional semi finals with just a couple nationwide events to choose the national champ.



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Not Trolling
Keith Morison
Ultra Moderator
Location: Calgary, AB
Join Date: 09/15/2015
Age: Possibly Wise
Posts: 267



Re: CARS Rally Manufacturer Snapshot
November 13, 2015 02:15PM
Quote
ElectroTech
Obviously that's not going to happen, so perhaps the best alternative would be to do regional semi finals with just a couple nationwide events to choose the national champ.
Or, leave the championships to the people who really want to spend the money to win them and focus on going out and having fun at events. (As an organizer, I recognize that championships do draw entries - that was one of the factors leading to RMR having much lower entries than PFR this year I am sure.)
The tows, even for the regional events, is a significant cost difference between rally in North America and in yerp. A Calgary team doing all 5 events in the WCRC will tow over 4000km for the 5 events. (A Fork Lake AB based team would tow just over 9,000km for all 5 events, a Squamish based team about 7400km) How many events could the typical You're-a-peein' do with 4000km of towing? 9,000km? (more than 5 I'm guessing)
Of course towing is more than just fuel and wear and tare on the rig, it's all about time off - or away from work and non-rally life. (If you can average 100km/h, which ain't east to do when towing, the Fork Lakers of the world would need to find 74hours each season to devote just to towing...)
So ya... we're fucked by geography.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Elite Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,993

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: CARS Rally Manufacturer Snapshot
November 13, 2015 02:43PM
Quote
ALS FTW
.. I'd be more interested in seeing how many events each group drives in a year than trying to link the type of car being driven to the difference. We all know cars don't go fast without talented drivers behind the wheel. Any numbers on that John?

Given that for most people "we" would like to encourage to enter and stay in the sport have a finite amount of money to play at their pass-times with...

Isn't it strikingly obvious that there might be a linkage between the Per-centage of a total budget spent on the car and the number and distance of events a person chooses..
Thus the TYPE of car plays a central role in the numbers of events potentially do-able.--as well as distance and event and life costs.
Isn't that obvious?



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
Junior Moderator
Location: Fork Lake, Alberta
Join Date: 06/09/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 312

Rally Car:
1992 Golf


Re: CARS Rally Manufacturer Snapshot
November 13, 2015 02:56PM
Quote
Not Trolling
Quote
ElectroTech
Obviously that's not going to happen, so perhaps the best alternative would be to do regional semi finals with just a couple nationwide events to choose the national champ.
Or, leave the championships to the people who really want to spend the money to win them and focus on going out and having fun at events. (As an organizer, I recognize that championships do draw entries - that was one of the factors leading to RMR having much lower entries than PFR this year I am sure.)
The tows, even for the regional events, is a significant cost difference between rally in North America and in yerp. A Calgary team doing all 5 events in the WCRC will tow over 4000km for the 5 events. (A Fork Lake AB based team would tow just over 9,000km for all 5 events, a Squamish based team about 7400km) How many events could the typical You're-a-peein' do with 4000km of towing? 9,000km? (more than 5 I'm guessing)
Of course towing is more than just fuel and wear and tare on the rig, it's all about time off - or away from work and non-rally life. (If you can average 100km/h, which ain't east to do when towing, the Fork Lakers of the world would need to find 74hours each season to devote just to towing...)
So ya... we're fucked by geography.
Honestly think the off stage time will be my biggest enemy for entries, but I am committed and it's not much worse than going sledding in the mountains for me, save for the fact that it won't be 4 guys in the truck splitting hotels and fuel.
I would say 9000km of driving would put you in 20 events. And those 20 events probably cost the same in terms of entry fees as 5 over here due to breadth of field. Costs roughly the same to do an event for 20 as an event for 150.
What actually forms our entry fee costs? Road closure fees? Ambulance hire costs? I believe Rally is a hell of a lot more a cultural thing in Europe, being that the local government probably doesn't stiff the organizers at every possible juncture.



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Not Trolling
Keith Morison
Ultra Moderator
Location: Calgary, AB
Join Date: 09/15/2015
Age: Possibly Wise
Posts: 267



Re: CARS Rally Manufacturer Snapshot
November 13, 2015 03:36PM
Quote
ElectroTech
And those 20 events probably cost the same in terms of entry fees as 5 over here due to breadth of field.
I don't have a ton of time to research entry costs, but I seriously doubt you'll find regional rallies with over 100km of stage distance at under $200cad in europe. I'm happy to be corrected on that, but I just don't see it.

Quote
ElectroTech
Costs roughly the same to do an event for 20 as an event for 150.
Actually, no... they aren't. There are a myriad of costs that are 'per entry,' depending on how you run the event. In Canada, we are charged event insurance on a per car basis, and then we also provide car numbers and printed material for each entry.
Also, it is almost certain that you might end up renting space for a 150 car service park where you might 'squat' on the corner of a lot for a 20 car field. (the size of service rigs might cost us one of our regional events because we have no-where to fit the service park anymore)

Quote
ElectroTech
What actually forms our entry fee costs? Road closure fees? Ambulance hire costs? I believe Rally is a hell of a lot more a cultural thing in Europe, being that the local government probably doesn't stiff the organizers at every possible juncture.

In western Canada, at least, we don't pay any road use fees. Some events have had to post a bond against damage, but no actual use or permit fees in any of the events I've been involved in. The governments certainly aren't 'stiffing' us in any way.

A quick look at the budget for Rocky this year, which had 22 cars and may not actually break even but was run with a tight line on finances, shows the following distribution... roughly:

30% Volunteer Feeding and housing
21% Awards banquet and trophies (A bit higher because National event)
21% Sanctioning and insurance
15% Admin costs (printing, route checking, banner tape, service park security, etc.)
15% Safety costs (Ambulance, etc.)
(Yah, more than 100%)

Each event will look a bit different in this split. Some events don't have the volunteer costs because they are 'local' events, some events might run a planned surplus to build a reserve to support a high-cost event - equalizing out the entry fees over the events. (socialist in nature.)
Please Login or Register to post a reply
ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
Junior Moderator
Location: Fork Lake, Alberta
Join Date: 06/09/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 312

Rally Car:
1992 Golf


Re: CARS Rally Manufacturer Snapshot
November 13, 2015 03:59PM
Quote
Not Trolling
Quote
ElectroTech
And those 20 events probably cost the same in terms of entry fees as 5 over here due to breadth of field.
I don't have a ton of time to research entry costs, but I seriously doubt you'll find regional rallies with over 100km of stage distance at under $200cad in europe. I'm happy to be corrected on that, but I just don't see it.

Quote
ElectroTech
Costs roughly the same to do an event for 20 as an event for 150.
Actually, no... they aren't. There are a myriad of costs that are 'per entry,' depending on how you run the event. In Canada, we are charged event insurance on a per car basis, and then we also provide car numbers and printed material for each entry.
Also, it is almost certain that you might end up renting space for a 150 car service park where you might 'squat' on the corner of a lot for a 20 car field. (the size of service rigs might cost us one of our regional events because we have no-where to fit the service park anymore)

Quote
ElectroTech
What actually forms our entry fee costs? Road closure fees? Ambulance hire costs? I believe Rally is a hell of a lot more a cultural thing in Europe, being that the local government probably doesn't stiff the organizers at every possible juncture.

In western Canada, at least, we don't pay any road use fees. Some events have had to post a bond against damage, but no actual use or permit fees in any of the events I've been involved in. The governments certainly aren't 'stiffing' us in any way.

A quick look at the budget for Rocky this year, which had 22 cars and may not actually break even but was run with a tight line on finances, shows the following distribution... roughly:

30% Volunteer Feeding and housing
21% Awards banquet and trophies (A bit higher because National event)
21% Sanctioning and insurance
15% Admin costs (printing, route checking, banner tape, service park security, etc.)
15% Safety costs (Ambulance, etc.)
(Yah, more than 100%)

Each event will look a bit different in this split. Some events don't have the volunteer costs because they are 'local' events, some events might run a planned surplus to build a reserve to support a high-cost event - equalizing out the entry fees over the events. (socialist in nature.)
Thanks Keith,
Interesting on the per entry insurance, are these insurance policies negotiated across the series, can local Rallies apply to use the larger events policy? I've been involved in all sorts of snowmobile drag and snow cross racing, insurance costs to do an individual event are prohibitive but as a group policy it becomes quite affordable.
$800 kind of the going rate for a weekend of racing?
Just trying to get a better understanding of how it's run.



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Not Trolling
Keith Morison
Ultra Moderator
Location: Calgary, AB
Join Date: 09/15/2015
Age: Possibly Wise
Posts: 267



Re: CARS Rally Manufacturer Snapshot
November 13, 2015 04:15PM
Quote
ElectroTech
Interesting on the per entry insurance, are these insurance policies negotiated across the series, can local Rallies apply to use the larger events policy?
CARS sanctioned events MUST get their insurance through CARS, ASN Canada FIA. The insurance is actually an umbrella policy that covers all motorsports, and is held by ASN Canada FIA (The Federation) and the clubs are 'additional insured.' So, it is already a 'group' policy with the pool being all motorsports sanctioned by ASN Canada FIA 'territories.'
But... there is a further 'balancing' of costs associated with insurance under CARS.
CARS charges insurance on a 'per car' basis to help organisers - particularly of small events - plan and be successful.
So, where a regional event has a 'raw' insurance cost of $2050, as set by 'the federation,' CARS charges out the insurance at ~$120. That way the events with 20 or more cars actually subsidise the insurance cost of lower entry events. RMR, as a 2 day National, has an raw insurance cost of $4150, but paid a per-car rate well below that.

Quote
ElectroTech
$800 kind of the going rate for a weekend of racing?
Just trying to get a better understanding of how it's run.
Sprint or testing comes in at $775 per day. I think there is a per-car fee for sprints, testing is the flat fee. (Sprints are pointless, unless it is a proof of concept for a venue or training organizers. Teams gain MUCH more in a day of testing... but I digress.)
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
Infallible Moderator
Location: La Belle Province, Montreal
Join Date: 03/13/2006
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 578

Rally Car:
Don't Laugh, the Justy is Fun!


Re: CARS Rally Manufacturer Snapshot
November 14, 2015 03:09AM
Uropeen rallies aren't any cheaper... I'm here, I've been looking.


Rallye du Var is coming up in south France.

website
http://www.var-rallye.fr/#

Regs
http://var-rallye.fr/documents/v15_reglement_histo_en.pdf


"Normal entry fees : 650 € (550 € for crew member enrolled in the ASAC of the Var)"

Critérium des Cévennes was a few weeks ago, 750 €

Those are fairly big events I believe though... not sure about smaller ones.

Just "going for drive" in the Polo is pretty much a rally 'round these parts... winking smiley so I haven't bothered with much more, and I have other time priorities... 3000 m this weekend for snow! winking smiley
Please Login or Register to post a reply
ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
Junior Moderator
Location: Fork Lake, Alberta
Join Date: 06/09/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 312

Rally Car:
1992 Golf


Re: CARS Rally Manufacturer Snapshot
November 16, 2015 08:00PM
The Cascadia series seems to be a great regional championship, lots of traffic from the south. The dollar making a weekend of racing pretty affordable for our southern friends.



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Kallinen
Jordan Kallinen
Mod Moderator
Location: Webster WI, and Silver Bay MN
Join Date: 11/04/2015
Age: Party Animal
Posts: 12

Rally Car:
1990 Volvo 240


Re: CARS Rally Manufacturer Snapshot
November 17, 2015 12:46AM
So, not intending to derail the topic too much more, what does this insurance actually do? Our cars are not covered, but I suppose major damage to roads might be something that is covered. At least in RA your car needs to be road legal and insured to certain amounts. So I can't see individual crash damage needing to be covered except maybe supplimentally by the organization.

Just curious.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Not Trolling
Keith Morison
Ultra Moderator
Location: Calgary, AB
Join Date: 09/15/2015
Age: Possibly Wise
Posts: 267



Re: CARS Rally Manufacturer Snapshot
November 17, 2015 01:00AM
Insurance really is for the catastrophic events. So, if you ploughed into a crowd on stage with your rally car, the event insurance would be in force. Same as if you hit a bridge, a house, or a volunteer's car. (in canada at least.)

We also have some coverage for competitor injury, death, and dismemberment.

I know our region has a fund to cover road damage... a fund that has NEVER been drawn against in the 15 years or so its been around.

The policy in Canada also has third party coverage, so volunteers are covered should they be involved in an incident, as are sponsors, and land-owners/government agencies.

Ultimately, we generally can't get road permissions without the coverage...

Rally cars themselves have absolutely no coverage from event policies... and you'd need to get special coverage for your car if you did want it on stage.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login