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SCCA's "Stepped" plan for Rally in the USA-Good idea or bound to fizzle?

Posted by RALLYRS 
NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Re: SCCA's "Stepped" plan for Rally in the USA-Good idea or bound to fizzle?
November 20, 2015 03:22PM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
The economy for blue collar dudes has been in steady -- if not dramatic -- decline for over 20 years. Couple that with increases in costs to run (for a variety of reasons) and you get dramatically fewer people moving into the sport through this route.

Not to mention the increased cost of living in USA without a matching raise in income.
I contend that many engineers and other desk jockeys are blue collar workers sucked into a white collar economy. Rally attracts them as they want to build things and work with their hands and see physical manifestations of their labors.



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Re: SCCA's "Stepped" plan for Rally in the USA-Good idea or bound to fizzle?
November 20, 2015 09:14PM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
John, You may be right but the economy for blue collar dudes has been in steady -- if not dramatic -- decline for over 20 years.

Ayup. 15 years ago, I was making more money in numerical dollars (not just adjusted dollars) than I am now, even though I've significantly moved up in the pay percentile. In other words, I make more than most people in my line of work NOW, but I still make a lot less money than I used to make THEN.

Yeah it is great that one can buy an awesome computer for $600 instead of $6000 but that doesn't help when one's retirement plan is "hope Social Security isn't bankrupt, or at least die before you are too old to work anymore".

Also, I recently found this scarily prescient buit of satire. From Jaunary 2001.



Pete Remner
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2015 09:20PM by Pete.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: SCCA's "Stepped" plan for Rally in the USA-Good idea or bound to fizzle?
November 20, 2015 11:50PM
Quote
NoCoast
Quote
Josh Wimpey
The economy for blue collar dudes has been in steady -- if not dramatic -- decline for over 20 years. Couple that with increases in costs to run (for a variety of reasons) and you get dramatically fewer people moving into the sport through this route.

Not to mention the increased cost of living in USA without a matching raise in income.
I contend that many engineers and other desk jockeys are blue collar workers sucked into a white collar economy. Rally attracts them as they want to build things and work with their hands and see physical manifestations of their labors.

And maybe that's why injur-nears are so frequently the build it forever, fret for weeks and spend stupid money over a 0,15% weight change etc. but ignore gross inefficiencies like lack of practice developing driving experience etc type guys.
Rally attract some---those that tend to stay---by something else: the drive..
And everything else is secondary, just necessary evil to get that done...



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john vanlandingham
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Re: SCCA's "Stepped" plan for Rally in the USA-Good idea or bound to fizzle?
November 21, 2015 12:01AM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
John, You may be right but the economy for blue collar dudes has been in steady -- if not dramatic -- decline for over 20 years. Couple that with increases in costs to run (for a variety of reasons) and you get dramatically fewer people moving into the sport through this route. Even lowering the costs back to late 1990s specs and safety requirements won't bring many of them back to the sport.

Must be fun being so young and only thinking the decline for the people that make things has only been for the last 20 years..or so.....

Real wages in constant dollars for skilled metal workers just to pull a random catagory that I have been in just a little since 1970ish has gone down roughly 29-30% since about 1972---despite the vast HUGE increase in productivity brought about by CNC machining and the modern ceramic--fancy ass indexable cutting tools...

But for all y'allz who werent working in the bad old days of the Reagan Administration with out of control inflation (as a direct result of policies of the Nixon administration).. ...
The trend, the convulsions were a decade old---and yet there were on average many more cars at every event and more importantly MANY MORE EVENTS at low entry fees..
7-9 in Washington state with a population pool---mostly blue collar (we used to make a lot of airplanes over there----> about a mile and a half away) in Seattle and Portland of under 4 million.

Now the population has doubled, per capita incomes are much higher, and the entries are skimpy---and theres 2-3 events in WA
Max



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2015 08:55PM by john vanlandingham.
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Josh Wimpey
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Re: SCCA's "Stepped" plan for Rally in the USA-Good idea or bound to fizzle?
November 21, 2015 04:31PM
I did say 'for OVER 20 years' and chose 20 years as that is a timeframe that is relevant to most ralliests who remember the end of SCCA ProPony as the 'good ol days' with waiting lists for all sorts of rally events. I am certainly aware of the decline in blue-collardom wages starting well before 1995



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RALLYRS
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Re: SCCA's "Stepped" plan for Rally in the USA-Good idea or bound to fizzle?
December 08, 2015 02:12PM
.................



Well...my local area(SoCal) now has a date for a RallyTrial at the same venue location as the bulk of our rallycrosses.


http://myautoevents.com/pls/mae/frmEventDetail.Show?psevent_id=15682

http://www.dirally.com/forums/showthread.php?33903-2016-JayCom-Glen-Helen-Schedule-and-info&p=417617&posted=1#post417617



I'm excited-I want to run it!

No final safety regs yet-but signs point to-maybe- only a 4 point roll bar....and possibly plus door bars.

We will see.

I suppose I should get my car running first ...before I worry about such things.


Details:

"Sunday Jun 5th - RallyTrials at Glen Helen
Yes, I said RallyTrials. Details are going to be in flux for quite a while, but the jist is as such: For Caged cars (may get reduced to roll bars), higher average speed, more "opsticals", much longer course. Prelim design includes the trophy truck course. Scoring will be similar to RallyX, but this is not part of the Glen Helen Points series."


I'm guessing -but it sounds like he(Jay-the organizer) may link the trophy truck course with the rallyx course.
They are right next to each other.

He has the RallyTrials running the day after the rallyx,so there shouldn't be any interference issues.


I've rallyx'd the Focus before on the Trophy truck course.

In March 2013 the Glen Helen Owners stole our normal rallyx course for parking for a last minute moto-x race and then luckily said we could use the Trophy Truck course.

Our organizer placed cones on the Trophy Truck course to slow us down to rallyx speeds... but some cars still slightly left the ground in certain areas...

Of course it was WAY MORE FUN than a flat parking lot!


I had a giant class of 3 including myself in prepared 2wd that day...


...........

Lined up in front of my only two competitors in my class that day-the 911 and the Miata.
The cars next to us are stock AWD:





Not the most thrilling vid-but before all the awd action starts it shows the 911(stage car), then me in the Focus,then the organizer in his Miata..learning one of the Trophy truck course sweepers:






I managed to best the other two guys/cars in my big 'ol class of 3 that day.


A better onboard vid of Verdier's run that day in just a SLIGHTLY quicker car: winking smiley



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RALLYRS
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Re: SCCA's "Stepped" plan for Rally in the USA-Good idea or bound to fizzle?
December 28, 2015 06:35PM
So SCCA posted their RallyTrials and RallySprint rules:

http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files/scca/downloads/000/011/662/2016_RallyTrialsRallySprint_Rules.pdf?1450124498

I was happy to see they went with Time Trials Rules(just a 4 point roll bar) for the RallyTrials.
Honestly it's just a slightly faster rallyx-no need for full cage...

But...Bummer that the RallyTrials couse design can't have elevation changes..that probably wont bode well for using that trophy truck course I posted above...
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john vanlandingham
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Re: SCCA's "Stepped" plan for Rally in the USA-Good idea or bound to fizzle?
December 28, 2015 10:03PM
Quote
RALLYRS
So SCCA posted their RallyTrials and RallySprint rules:

http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files/scca/downloads/000/011/662/2016_RallyTrialsRallySprint_Rules.pdf?1450124498

I was happy to see they went with Time Trials Rules(just a 4 point roll bar) for the RallyTrials.
Honestly it's just a slightly faster rallyx-no need for full cage...

But...Bummer that the RallyTrials couse design can't have elevation changes..that probably wont bode well for using that trophy truck course I posted above...

What the fuck is "elevation changes..Those faggotity SCCA types gonna have some laser-level and GPS and make sure the wawwy-twials is flat + or- .001"..

Does SCCA mandate that whoever writes their rules for everything be wearing double adult Depends? Do they do the whole ultra-drag burlesque High Camp routiney, or just do the drama queen gig playing it straight..
Elevation change..A bump is elevation change..



John Vanlandingham
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2015 12:15AM by john vanlandingham.
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Re: SCCA's "Stepped" plan for Rally in the USA-Good idea or bound to fizzle?
December 28, 2015 10:32PM
Looks like it's time to develop some bolt in roll bar kits. We actually talked about an Impreza one last Tuesday for Rallycross.



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Anders Green
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Re: SCCA's "Stepped" plan for Rally in the USA-Good idea or bound to fizzle?
December 28, 2015 10:38PM
Interesting. RallySprint limitation: "Maximum speeds on straights should not normally exceed 70 miles per hour for the fastest vehicles."

Not the average for the stage, just an instantaneous 70 mph. How long would it take for a "medium strength" turbo awd car to reach this? It seems like it would take most "proper stages" out of contention?

Anders



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RALLYRS
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Re: SCCA's "Stepped" plan for Rally in the USA-Good idea or bound to fizzle?
December 28, 2015 10:57PM
Anders..yes I thought the 70mph max for the rallysprint was a bit conservative too(to put it mildly).
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DaveK
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Re: SCCA's "Stepped" plan for Rally in the USA-Good idea or bound to fizzle?
December 29, 2015 01:28PM
Quote
Anders Green
Interesting. RallySprint limitation: "Maximum speeds on straights should not normally exceed 70 miles per hour for the fastest vehicles."

70 in an unrestricted turbo awd will come up really really quick (I didn't read the rules...restrictors required?). I was well into 3rd gear in my Evo once at a CO-RX event...didn't have time to check the speedo because I was sawing back and forth at the wheel thru a stupid fast slalom trying not to take out the timing lights and the people sitting behind the timing table (this was at the event grant referenced from a few years back). It looked like a safe place...until you drove the course. Things got moved after the first run thru.



Dave
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Re: SCCA's "Stepped" plan for Rally in the USA-Good idea or bound to fizzle?
December 29, 2015 03:58PM
would there be a penalty if a driver went over 70 mph?



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Re: SCCA's "Stepped" plan for Rally in the USA-Good idea or bound to fizzle?
December 29, 2015 04:04PM
I think the idea is that bursts up to and over 70 are fine, but they're trying to discourage extended high speed segments. You know, miles of 4's and 5's.

I have no idea why there's a prohibition on elevation changes or even what that's really supposed to mean. No off-camber turns? No long downhills that'll overheat brakes? I dunno.



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RALLYRS
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Re: SCCA's "Stepped" plan for Rally in the USA-Good idea or bound to fizzle?
December 29, 2015 04:26PM
Michel-the restriction on "significant"(whatever that means) elevation changes is on the RallyTrials course-not their RallySprint:

RallyTrials Courses
1 RallyTrials courses shall be placed on relatively level, smooth dirt or gravel surfaces and shall
avoid incorporating significant elevation changes or abrupt high-speed turns. Course design
should normally provide a combination of flowing turns connected by short straight
sections.
2 Maximum speeds on straights should not normally exceed 60 miles per hour for the fastest
vehicles.
3 A 30 second penalty will be given if a course marker/pylon is upset or totally displaced. A 50
second penalty will be given for each missed gate.
4 Courses should be designed so that the entire course may be observed by course officials
from one location. It is recommended that RallyTrials courses not exceed 1.5 miles in
length.
5 Like RallyCross, the course will be designated by upright and pointer cones. It is
recommended that cone positions be marked with landscape flags (or similar) to ensure
displaced cones are replaced in the proper location.
6 The course must be located a reasonably safe distance from fixed objects and hazards, such
as trees, poles, barriers, buildings, mounds, holes and ponds. The minimum recommended
set-back for hazards on the inside of turns and along straights is at least 25 feet. The
minimum recommended set-back for hazards on the outside of corners is at least 50 feet.



Here's their Rallysprint course rules:

C RallySprint Courses
1 RallySprint courses may be run on RallyTrials -type sites (e.g. large dirt/gravel parking lots)
or on sections of dirt, gravel or snow-packed roads. Course design may allow somewhat
faster speeds than RallyTrials events, but the emphasis should remain on vehicle handling,
not top speed.
2 Maximum speeds on straights should not normally exceed 70 miles per hour for the fastest
vehicles. Chicanes may be used to control speeds on longer straight sections.
3 Penalties should be minimally the same as RallyTrials.
4 For RallySprint courses that are set up on large, open areas, the course will be designated by
upright and pointer cones. For RallySprint courses that are set up on roads or trails, the
roadway itself will designate the course and cones may be used to mark key course features,
such as corner entries, hazards, gates and intersections.
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