si John Farnsworth Ultra Moderator Location: Chicago, IL / St. Louis, MO Join Date: 03/01/2013 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 54 |
Actually - I agree with you. I'm not sure how a new class that's closer to open-money would help those Golves or Volvo though. But, to your point of a broader perspective than just here - that's exactly where I think people aren't looking hard enough at these rules. These sorts of rules have been in classes internationally for ages, and as a result, the engineering is already fairly well developed. Some things already pointed out here are "Oh you have to have a stock gearbox". No, you have to have an OE gearbox case, just like other bodies have used as a rule elsewhere, the result? http://www.iagperformance.com/KAPS-R4-Sequential-6-Speed-Gear-Box-Conversion-Kit-p/kapsr4.htm. Diffs don't seem restricted either, so you can do just about any level of active magic diff setup. Between that and a large budget for tires, you get a legitimate advantage, even on this squishy non-tarmac stuff. I'm sure there's a lot of GpN/R4 stuff internationally that's available that's tested in high end competition that's legal under these rules, but whole lotta not cheap. Grant's suggestions are a lot closer to a realistic cost-control playing field, especially if you toss in a spec tire and tire limits. |
MConte05 Matthew Conte Ultra Moderator Location: St. Louis, MO Join Date: 06/27/2011 Age: Settling Down Posts: 257 Rally Car: 1991 Subaru Legacy Turbozzzzzz |
I don't think anyone said stock gearboxes? Just casing, so yea 6 speed dogboxes, or those sequentials are still going to be around. Would I like to see a requirement to use an H-Pattern shifter? Yea. But $15k for a gearbox isn't that bad when you consider the costs of motorsports "near the top". The Sadev units are far more expensive. |
Reamer Jeff Reamer Ultra Moderator Location: Marlette, Michigan Join Date: 08/14/2010 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 489 Rally Car: Subaru |
How much faster or better is a sequential over a H pattern dog box? It cant be much is it? I can see a few tenths per corner entrance and exit with a stock box to sequential. But is sequetial really worth the extra bucks actual gang of speed wise over H pattern dog box? Or is it just a fad that the R2 brought along?
First rally 2013 Rally car type AWD subaru Total rallies as driver 6 Total rally cars built 2 Total rally cars caged 3 Total rally cars repaired from offs 4 Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs Like 31motorsports on FB! Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts |
Aaron Luptak Aaron Luptak Junior Moderator Location: SLC Join Date: 02/15/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 776 Rally Car: Civic... |
fixed that for you. definitely pre-dates R2, seems like pretty much any and every class that's any higher spec than showroom-stock-shitbox allows (or specs) a sequential gearbox. Clio Cup, etc. etc. etc. KF7RWG http://www.utahrallygroup.com |
DaveK Dave Kern Junior Moderator Location: Centennial Join Date: 07/11/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 1,085 Rally Car: Compact M3 & Evo IX |
I have a friend that tunes Pikes Peak cars. He was involved with my effort and that of the Porsche cars. Sounded like on a 12 mile (156 corners) stint he thought it could be worth 15-30 seconds. Keep in mind that on turbocharged cars (this is also at PP where big turbos and thin air exaggerate the issues), programming in no-lift-shifting enables the boost to stay up between shifts...so I don't know how much of that time would be represented by the NLS vs just the quicker shifting times. I've run stock gearbox case with dog gearsets in them, and while damn cool sounding...the $$ it takes to maintain them is just flat out stupid. Count me in the group that would love to see pump gas, no restrictor, & h-patterns in the "top" class. Dave Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2015 01:22PM by DaveK. |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Mod Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
They have been around since as far as I know about 1992---and the difference is a "few " 1/10s.. But back then when National Championship events might be as long as Dubya Arsey is now do a little math. say 0,15 sec quicker/shift say 20 shifts/mile 3 seconds how many miles? say 160miles SS 480 seconds 8 minutes. And a unexpected benefit back then: it was found gearbox life went up drastically--like2-3 times, when the bone headed driver was removed from the equation--except straight pull/push. Here it is of course utter ego-stroking bragging, because what does you get if you "win"? Nothing.. So the cost/benefit calculation is shot to shit. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Mod Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Just in case somebody misses that.. maybe add "max 225mm travel inserts" John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Reamer Jeff Reamer Ultra Moderator Location: Marlette, Michigan Join Date: 08/14/2010 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 489 Rally Car: Subaru |
Thats what I wanted to know! didnt think about the loss of boost. was thinking more of missing gears and timing being more forgiving with a sequential. Im all for pump gas no restrictor and H pattern.
First rally 2013 Rally car type AWD subaru Total rallies as driver 6 Total rally cars built 2 Total rally cars caged 3 Total rally cars repaired from offs 4 Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs Like 31motorsports on FB! Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts |
reecers Reece Ultra Moderator Location: Oklahoma City Join Date: 03/07/2013 Age: Settling Down Posts: 161 Rally Car: 1991 Ej20g'd Legacy |
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deaner Dane Aura Godlike Moderator Location: Caldwell, ID Join Date: 07/07/2013 Age: Settling Down Posts: 346 Rally Car: PS4 controller |
I'm all for a non-restricted, damper restriction, non sequential type class. Or at least a restrictor size equal to a small framed turbo. T25/28/3 sized turbos with an injector size or boost limit on pump gas would be awesome. Being able to get started on a stock Ecu and turbo in an awd class would be awesome. I'm not excited about castrating my Quattro car to run grp5 because I can't muster up the extra $2k+ to get a restricted setup in the car lol.
How do class changes come about? Enough people get together and bitch and changes happen? Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2015 03:41PM by deaner. |
EricW Eric Wages Godlike Moderator Location: Goose Creek, SC Join Date: 12/09/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 280 Rally Car: 2002 WRX |
Limit tires in NLO and then there will be "competition".
I don't *ever* see Open going away while SRTUSA is competing. After all, you have to have SOMETHING to win with. And from a PR perspective, even though the competition is limited, you still get to stay it's a win. It's not YOUR fault as SRTUSA (and underwriter for the series and RA), that other people can't complete on the same level of commitment! NLO isn't for SRTUSA. They're not going to handicap themselves and risk "the investment". |
Not Trolling Keith Morison Junior Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 09/15/2015 Age: Ancient Posts: 340 |
I can't speak for SRTUSA, but I do know that Subaru Canada would rather win against reasonable competition than run-way in their own class. That said, when anything goes... it usually does. First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19) Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5) WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4) Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11) Last Updated, May30, 2022 |
MConte05 Matthew Conte Ultra Moderator Location: St. Louis, MO Join Date: 06/27/2011 Age: Settling Down Posts: 257 Rally Car: 1991 Subaru Legacy Turbozzzzzz |
I firmly believe that SRTUSA wants the competition, look at the youtube comments and the article comments on their undefeated season. Everyone notices that they didn't really have any competition. If anything it's a negative image. |
Anders Green Anders Green Mod Moderator Location: Raleigh, NC Join Date: 03/30/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,478 Rally Car: Parked |
Eh. *shrug* So what if the tiny community of 350 rally drivers in the United States has an opinion on it. The other 318 MILLION people in the US will never come across that and that's who Subaru is marketing to.
Yeah, SRTUSA has seen some of those comments. I can't imagine that a 50 million dollar (or whatever) advertising budget is going to swing around because of 45 comments on youtube. Look at how much ridiculous negativity there is over Zoolander 2. *rolls eyes* Anders Grassroots rally. It's what I think about. |
reecers Reece Ultra Moderator Location: Oklahoma City Join Date: 03/07/2013 Age: Settling Down Posts: 161 Rally Car: 1991 Ej20g'd Legacy |
subaru is marketin to grandma's that think their forester can rally through the woods at 100 mph I am not an alien Koolaid on specialstage just an FYI |