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So now there is a quasi-open class?

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John Farnsworth
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Re: So now there is a quasi-open class?
December 07, 2015 02:43PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
As we have seen, posted right here, if one has a broader perspective than just looking at HERE and pretending that this is the only place rally is done, the more you see that the results of even the alleged "pointiest of the pointiest" in the best car that money can buy (by that I mean to get a better car you can't buy it---they give it to you) was beat on SS times by 2 club level Golves, and 1 club level school-bus length Volvo 940...
So the dumping of truckloads of money MAY buy a result in Merikuh, but knowing what we know about what the speed is when there are OTHERS with skill, it vastly erodes any meaning from the results here.

When money buys results in motorsports, there is something wrong with the format, the rules set, or the participants.....

Actually - I agree with you. I'm not sure how a new class that's closer to open-money would help those Golves or Volvo though. But, to your point of a broader perspective than just here - that's exactly where I think people aren't looking hard enough at these rules. These sorts of rules have been in classes internationally for ages, and as a result, the engineering is already fairly well developed.

Some things already pointed out here are "Oh you have to have a stock gearbox". No, you have to have an OE gearbox case, just like other bodies have used as a rule elsewhere, the result? http://www.iagperformance.com/KAPS-R4-Sequential-6-Speed-Gear-Box-Conversion-Kit-p/kapsr4.htm. Diffs don't seem restricted either, so you can do just about any level of active magic diff setup. Between that and a large budget for tires, you get a legitimate advantage, even on this squishy non-tarmac stuff. I'm sure there's a lot of GpN/R4 stuff internationally that's available that's tested in high end competition that's legal under these rules, but whole lotta not cheap.

Grant's suggestions are a lot closer to a realistic cost-control playing field, especially if you toss in a spec tire and tire limits.
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MConte05
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Re: So now there is a quasi-open class?
December 07, 2015 03:39PM
Quote
si
Quote
john vanlandingham
As we have seen, posted right here, if one has a broader perspective than just looking at HERE and pretending that this is the only place rally is done, the more you see that the results of even the alleged "pointiest of the pointiest" in the best car that money can buy (by that I mean to get a better car you can't buy it---they give it to you) was beat on SS times by 2 club level Golves, and 1 club level school-bus length Volvo 940...
So the dumping of truckloads of money MAY buy a result in Merikuh, but knowing what we know about what the speed is when there are OTHERS with skill, it vastly erodes any meaning from the results here.

When money buys results in motorsports, there is something wrong with the format, the rules set, or the participants.....

Actually - I agree with you. I'm not sure how a new class that's closer to open-money would help those Golves or Volvo though. But, to your point of a broader perspective than just here - that's exactly where I think people aren't looking hard enough at these rules. These sorts of rules have been in classes internationally for ages, and as a result, the engineering is already fairly well developed.

Some things already pointed out here are "Oh you have to have a stock gearbox". No, you have to have an OE gearbox case, just like other bodies have used as a rule elsewhere, the result? http://www.iagperformance.com/KAPS-R4-Sequential-6-Speed-Gear-Box-Conversion-Kit-p/kapsr4.htm. Diffs don't seem restricted either, so you can do just about any level of active magic diff setup. Between that and a large budget for tires, you get a legitimate advantage, even on this squishy non-tarmac stuff. I'm sure there's a lot of GpN/R4 stuff internationally that's available that's tested in high end competition that's legal under these rules, but whole lotta not cheap.

Grant's suggestions are a lot closer to a realistic cost-control playing field, especially if you toss in a spec tire and tire limits.

I don't think anyone said stock gearboxes? Just casing, so yea 6 speed dogboxes, or those sequentials are still going to be around. Would I like to see a requirement to use an H-Pattern shifter? Yea. But $15k for a gearbox isn't that bad when you consider the costs of motorsports "near the top". The Sadev units are far more expensive.
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Reamer
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Re: So now there is a quasi-open class?
December 08, 2015 12:45PM
How much faster or better is a sequential over a H pattern dog box? It cant be much is it? I can see a few tenths per corner entrance and exit with a stock box to sequential. But is sequetial really worth the extra bucks actual gang of speed wise over H pattern dog box? Or is it just a fad that the R2 brought along?



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Re: So now there is a quasi-open class?
December 08, 2015 01:09PM
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Reamer
Or is it just a fad that seemingly every racing class in Europe brought along?

fixed that for you.

definitely pre-dates R2, seems like pretty much any and every class that's any higher spec than showroom-stock-shitbox allows (or specs) a sequential gearbox. Clio Cup, etc. etc. etc.



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DaveK
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Re: So now there is a quasi-open class?
December 08, 2015 01:19PM
Quote
Reamer
How much faster or better is a sequential over a H pattern dog box? It cant be much is it? I can see a few tenths per corner entrance and exit with a stock box to sequential. But is sequetial really worth the extra bucks actual gang of speed wise over H pattern dog box? Or is it just a fad that the R2 brought along?

I have a friend that tunes Pikes Peak cars. He was involved with my effort and that of the Porsche cars. Sounded like on a 12 mile (156 corners) stint he thought it could be worth 15-30 seconds. Keep in mind that on turbocharged cars (this is also at PP where big turbos and thin air exaggerate the issues), programming in no-lift-shifting enables the boost to stay up between shifts...so I don't know how much of that time would be represented by the NLS vs just the quicker shifting times.

I've run stock gearbox case with dog gearsets in them, and while damn cool sounding...the $$ it takes to maintain them is just flat out stupid. Count me in the group that would love to see pump gas, no restrictor, & h-patterns in the "top" class.

Dave



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2015 01:22PM by DaveK.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: So now there is a quasi-open class?
December 08, 2015 01:26PM
Quote
Reamer
How much faster or better is a sequential over a H pattern dog box? It cant be much is it? I can see a few tenths per corner entrance and exit with a stock box to sequential. But is sequetial really worth the extra bucks actual gang of speed wise over H pattern dog box? Or is it just a fad that the R2 brought along?

They have been around since as far as I know about 1992---and the difference is a "few " 1/10s..

But back then when National Championship events might be as long as Dubya Arsey is now do a little math.
say 0,15 sec quicker/shift
say 20 shifts/mile
3 seconds
how many miles?
say 160miles SS
480 seconds
8 minutes.

And a unexpected benefit back then: it was found gearbox life went up drastically--like2-3 times, when the bone headed driver was removed from the equation--except straight pull/push.

Here it is of course utter ego-stroking bragging, because what does you get if you "win"?

Nothing..
So the cost/benefit calculation is shot to shit.



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Re: So now there is a quasi-open class?
December 08, 2015 01:28PM
Quote
DaveK
Quote
Reamer
How much faster or better is a sequential over a H pattern dog box? It cant be much is it? I can see a few tenths per corner entrance and exit with a stock box to sequential. But is sequetial really worth the extra bucks actual gang of speed wise over H pattern dog box? Or is it just a fad that the R2 brought along?



I've run stock gearbox case with dog gearsets in them, and while damn cool sounding...the $$ it takes to maintain them is just flat out stupid.


Count me in the group that would love to see pump gas, no restrictor, & h-patterns in the "top" class.

Dave


Just in case somebody misses that..
maybe add "max 225mm travel inserts"



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Reamer
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Re: So now there is a quasi-open class?
December 08, 2015 01:28PM
Thats what I wanted to know! didnt think about the loss of boost. was thinking more of missing gears and timing being more forgiving with a sequential. Im all for pump gas no restrictor and H pattern.



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Re: So now there is a quasi-open class?
December 08, 2015 02:07PM
So you guys want to start a new class and call it the lemons class? So we can have the 100 miles of lemons rally?



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Re: So now there is a quasi-open class?
December 08, 2015 03:40PM
I'm all for a non-restricted, damper restriction, non sequential type class. Or at least a restrictor size equal to a small framed turbo. T25/28/3 sized turbos with an injector size or boost limit on pump gas would be awesome. Being able to get started on a stock Ecu and turbo in an awd class would be awesome. I'm not excited about castrating my Quattro car to run grp5 because I can't muster up the extra $2k+ to get a restricted setup in the car lol.

How do class changes come about? Enough people get together and bitch and changes happen?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2015 03:41PM by deaner.
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Re: So now there is a quasi-open class?
December 13, 2015 07:21PM
Limit tires in NLO and then there will be "competition".

I don't *ever* see Open going away while SRTUSA is competing. After all, you have to have SOMETHING to win with. And from a PR perspective, even though the competition is limited, you still get to stay it's a win. It's not YOUR fault as SRTUSA (and underwriter for the series and RA), that other people can't complete on the same level of commitment!

NLO isn't for SRTUSA. They're not going to handicap themselves and risk "the investment".
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Re: So now there is a quasi-open class?
December 13, 2015 07:39PM
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EricW
NLO isn't for SRTUSA. They're not going to handicap themselves and risk "the investment".
I can't speak for SRTUSA, but I do know that Subaru Canada would rather win against reasonable competition than run-way in their own class. That said, when anything goes... it usually does.
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Re: So now there is a quasi-open class?
December 14, 2015 12:07AM
Quote
EricW
Limit tires in NLO and then there will be "competition".

I don't *ever* see Open going away while SRTUSA is competing. After all, you have to have SOMETHING to win with. And from a PR perspective, even though the competition is limited, you still get to stay it's a win. It's not YOUR fault as SRTUSA (and underwriter for the series and RA), that other people can't complete on the same level of commitment!

NLO isn't for SRTUSA. They're not going to handicap themselves and risk "the investment".

I firmly believe that SRTUSA wants the competition, look at the youtube comments and the article comments on their undefeated season. Everyone notices that they didn't really have any competition. If anything it's a negative image.
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Anders Green
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Re: So now there is a quasi-open class?
December 14, 2015 07:06AM
Eh. *shrug* So what if the tiny community of 350 rally drivers in the United States has an opinion on it. The other 318 MILLION people in the US will never come across that and that's who Subaru is marketing to.

Yeah, SRTUSA has seen some of those comments. I can't imagine that a 50 million dollar (or whatever) advertising budget is going to swing around because of 45 comments on youtube. Look at how much ridiculous negativity there is over Zoolander 2. *rolls eyes*

Anders



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Re: So now there is a quasi-open class?
December 14, 2015 03:53PM
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Anders Green
Eh. *shrug* So what if the tiny community of 350 rally drivers in the United States has an opinion on it. The other 318 MILLION people in the US will never come across that and that's who Subaru is marketing to.

Yeah, SRTUSA has seen some of those comments. I can't imagine that a 50 million dollar (or whatever) advertising budget is going to swing around because of 45 comments on youtube. Look at how much ridiculous negativity there is over Zoolander 2. *rolls eyes*

Anders

subaru is marketin to grandma's that think their forester can rally through the woods at 100 mph smiling smiley



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