BIG NEWS! Rally America annouces Big Sponsorship deal in Group 2

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Reamer
The used tire market would be huge with a spec tire.

But doesn't that kill the 'competition' argument for going to a spec tire?
From very limited testing I'd say that running new tires over take-offs gives more of a performance advantage that comparing one new tire to another... for the most part. (You wouldn't see teams changing out tires at every service if there wasn't a good reason to do so.)

For the vast majority of competitors in north america, tires won't level the playing field (or prove to be a 'killer weapon')

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First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19)
Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5)
WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4)
Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11)
Last Updated, May30, 2022

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Not Trolling

Quote
Reamer
The used tire market would be huge with a spec tire.

But doesn't that kill the 'competition' argument for going to a spec tire?
From very limited testing I'd say that running new tires over take-offs gives more of a performance advantage that comparing one new tire to another... for the most part. (You wouldn't see teams changing out tires at every service if there wasn't a good reason to do so.)

For the vast majority of competitors in north america, tires won't level the playing field (or prove to be a 'killer weapon')

Bullshit...

There is one huge obvious reason they're doing new tires every service: self-delusion.. Same reason so many are in cookie-cutter turbo AWD cars---they just ignore the Aussies who anihilate them in a little 1600 n.a. car..

They do it because they believe they "need" to.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John, stop being a knee-jerk contrarian to anything I say and read the last line of my post. You'll see we fundamentally agree.

What I was saying is that for any given driver, who actually puts some effort into it, a fresh set of tires will work better than a set that's already seen three or four stages. Fractionally better, and as the last line says, not substantially better.

No-one I've ever run with has gone with new tires at every service. Swapping between sets so we can square off the edges... absolutely. Of course no-one I've ever run with has run a soft enough tire that it will be completely consumed by one set of stages. (Reeves regularly returned to service on completely worn out tires.)

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First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19)
Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5)
WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4)
Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11)
Last Updated, May30, 2022

Yes the guy bolting on tires all weekend long may have an advantage. What you say you see most teams doing i would think would be the way most would go. Rotation with a little brush up.

If the competition was showing to be that good and times were close enough to merit. I would have a possible compound rule and max tire rule. Depending on the rally conditions. This is all hypothetical here were talking about. Put the open cars on a hard compound tire and let N/A have the softs. If it closes the gap then it may be worth doing as a way to make competition closer. Thats making for more rules that isnt the end goal here. The end goal is to have good close racing deep into the field.

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
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The only rally championships that I am aware of that have had spec tires are one make series like they have had in the UK by various different manufacturers. Everything from the Skoda Trophy series that used Colway tires to the Peugeuot 106 & 206 Cups that used Micheline tires and all kinds in-between. One difference with these series is that the tires were substantially cheaper to purchase than what competitors outside the one make series could buy them for and there was prize money to boot. Also all of the one make series limited the number of tires you could use per event usually no ore than 10 tires for a 150 mi of stages event that was on tarmac, shorter events would be less, as few as 6 tires. Average was 8 tires for a gravel event of about 100 mi.

It's like JV and others have said NASCRAP is different story as the cars are very similar as close as you can get to identical so a spec tire makes sense. For rally if it was a one make series where the cars are all the same model, built to tight specs under the series regs then a spec tire would be OK, but when you have all kinds of different size and power cars it is stupid. I wish them luck but I think the experiment will fail, and as usual at the expense of competitors that don't have the funds to throw around frivolously.

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...If you don't go off at least once a season you are not trying hard enough...

Quote
GB
The only rally championships that I am aware of that have had spec tires are one make series like they have had in the UK by various different manufacturers. Everything from the Skoda Trophy series that used Colway tires to the Peugeuot 106 & 206 Cups that used Micheline tires and all kinds in-between. One difference with these series is that the tires were substantially cheaper to purchase than what competitors outside the one make series could buy them for and there was prize money to boot. Also all of the one make series limited the number of tires you could use per event usually no ore than 10 tires for a 150 mi of stages event that was on tarmac, shorter events would be less, as few as 6 tires. Average was 8 tires for a gravel event of about 100 mi.

It's like JV and others have said NASCRAP is different story as the cars are very similar as close as you can get to identical so a spec tire makes sense. For rally if it was a one make series where the cars are all the same model, built to tight specs under the series regs then a spec tire would be OK, but when you have all kinds of different size and power cars it is stupid. I wish them luck but I think the experiment will fail, and as usual at the expense of competitors that don't have the funds to throw around frivolously.

First part: yeah. Incentives. discounts (they can write under-cost sales off as advertising--the sticker is required so its seen that's advertising) deals, not some "i'll give you Mr Mist one thousand dollah if you make this rule forcing everybody to buy my stuff I can't get rid of HA! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!"

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

A few rules will help equalize the different brands of cars. NAsacrs biggest rules are areo rules. Aero is no where near the biggest issue in rally. Track width wheel base and weight will bring raly cars super close in competition.

4 classes 2wd open 2wd modified awd open awd modified. To say a the cars are to different for a spec tire is just silly. Im not saying make a spec class im saying make rules with guide lines on what you can and cant do. If you enter awd modified with a turbo you wieght 3000 lbs. if you enter awd modified class with a N/A engine you wiegh 2700 lbs. This wieght may need testing but the out come will be a turbo car and a N/A car speed being close in speeds in all different enviroments. Some stages one maybe better then the other but the over all average will be super close.

Same for 2wd modified.

Open class to me should be the exotic stuff that people love to see. Maybe not the premier class for competition but more of the record breaking of stage times. Or the abuilty to build cool stuff like the Ken Block Hoonicorn. More cars like Kens Hoonicorn would bring the shock factor to the rally seen. The close competition in the other classes will bring the die hard racers.

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
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Reamer
A few rules will help equalize the different brands of cars. NAsacrs biggest rules are areo rules. Aero is no where near the biggest issue in rally. Track width wheel base and weight will bring raly cars super close in competition.

4 classes 2wd open 2wd modified awd open awd modified. To say a the cars are to different for a spec tire is just silly. Im not saying make a spec class im saying make rules with guide lines on what you can and cant do. If you enter awd modified with a turbo you wieght 3000 lbs. if you enter awd modified class with a N/A engine you wiegh 2700 lbs. This wieght may need testing but the out come will be a turbo car and a N/A car speed being close in speeds in all different enviroments. Some stages one maybe better then the other but the over all average will be super close.

Same for 2wd modified.

Jeff, right now out here we have in the existing 2wd class(es) 1995 240 hp stock n.a. BMW E36 fighting with 1986 turbo Xratty, fighting with 88 Golf fighting with 85 rew Corolla fighting with 1969 pushrod all iron V4 Saab..All swapping SS times..
Obviously the field is close enough without any additional fucking around.

In the Subaru classes we have Open, Ess Pea or Open Lite and the n.a Subie class and the results are all mixed---Rally lite regional cars beating National open and Ess Pea/whatever.

Obviously the field is close enough already without any additional fucking around.

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Open class to me should be the exotic stuff that people love to see. Maybe not the premier class for competition but more of the record breaking of stage times. Or the abuilty to build cool stuff like the Ken Block Hoonicorn. More cars like Kens Hoonicorn would bring the shock factor to the rally seen. The close competition in the other classes will bring the die hard racers.

In my short time around rally what people love to see DRIVING is cars being driven hard---regardless of class and spec..
There's a concept I've seen in first moto-cross and again in a much less scale, rally.
Adulation versus Identification.
Adulation does nothing for the sport..So a bunch of nerd-boys might be all excited about the look or the spec of "more hoon-mobiles" but unless they are driven with vigor, only the nerd-boys will be impressed, the rest will go "meh"..And few will say, after watching a hoon-mobile trundle by, "Dayum I wanna do that. I could do that"...

instead they say "wow, that was lame" and go right back to clicking on their shiny Smart-phones.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I agree with all that you just said JV. Rules are made up more for keeping it real and also a selling point to why we should do this silly sport or why we should do it over and over. Not many of my thoughts have a huge impact on existing cars. It more just points out and fixes a lot of the grey areas that ruin motorsports. You cant fix every thing but you can correct as many future issues that may crop up.

I keep me3ntioning track width, weight and wheel base. These 3 things along with susp travel build 90% of what makes a car fast or not. 99% of all of us dont work out the best of all worlds to build the ultimate rally car. By building a set of rules that out line these issues should step up the guys who are weak in some areas and step down teams that are over built.

In NLO for example they added a 11.1 compression ratio. That is now the standard to what you can build. This will help make the class more competative. Will all teams do this right now? No probably not. Is this the new goal to the guy who just blew up and needs a rebuild? for sure. Track width is the same thing. If the rules say 65"s with a wheel base of 99" or less then thats what you build to. A little note taking will make up the ultimate middle road for all builds and in turn keep the cars competitive. It isnt really about forcing a bunch of cars to rebuild its more of an out line or goal of what to build to. Inherently making cars more competitive. Other the the super star driver that exists in all forms of racing!

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts

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john vanlandingham

Quote
GB
The only rally championships that I am aware of that have had spec tires are one make series like they have had in the UK by various different manufacturers. Everything from the Skoda Trophy series that used Colway tires to the Peugeuot 106 & 206 Cups that used Micheline tires and all kinds in-between. One difference with these series is that the tires were substantially cheaper to purchase than what competitors outside the one make series could buy them for and there was prize money to boot. Also all of the one make series limited the number of tires you could use per event usually no ore than 10 tires for a 150 mi of stages event that was on tarmac, shorter events would be less, as few as 6 tires. Average was 8 tires for a gravel event of about 100 mi.

It's like JV and others have said NASCRAP is different story as the cars are very similar as close as you can get to identical so a spec tire makes sense. For rally if it was a one make series where the cars are all the same model, built to tight specs under the series regs then a spec tire would be OK, but when you have all kinds of different size and power cars it is stupid. I wish them luck but I think the experiment will fail, and as usual at the expense of competitors that don't have the funds to throw around frivolously.

First part: yeah. Incentives. discounts (they can write under-cost sales off as advertising--the sticker is required so its seen that's advertising) deals, not some "i'll give you Mr Mist one thousand dollah if you make this rule forcing everybody to buy my stuff I can't get rid of HA! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!"

One thing I forgot to add in almost all of those series any tires that were not used during the season could be returned back to the supplier for the full price you paid initially for them. This way if they changed the compound type for next season or the series got cancelled you wouldn't be stuck with tires you no longer needed.

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...If you don't go off at least once a season you are not trying hard enough...

Quote
Reamer
I keep me3ntioning track width, weight and wheel base. These 3 things along with susp travel build 90% of what makes a car fast or not.

Differentials. An Audi or BMW handle better than a Subaru. In our Audi with 50% more power we couldn't keep up with a Subaru with active center diffs, aftermarket diff computer, and Rocket Rally maps. Not a bad way to spend $10Gs...
There would be three easy rules that would really improve the competition in rally. No forced induction, max displacement of 3.0L, no active differentials.

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Grant Hughes

Good idea for the modified class. Also no sequential/dog boxes. The turbo doesnt bother me as much with max boost rule and even a fuel rule. A good running n/a engine can make good torque with good gear ratios. On the long fast roads the turbo does gang a ton. Keeping the turbo spooled in the tight stuff can be worse then N/A power.

Not sure how much better 11.1 36mm engine would be over the 34mm high boost engines. I dont think any body has ran a rally with one yet?

That was 1 thing that bothered me about the new ONL class. They say you cant move strut towers. Yet a new Ford rs can have long travel susp with out cutting towers and an old GC chassis cant. I would rather have seen a max shock length rule instead. 8" max no external canister. This would put the gc back in the game at a lower cost. The ford rs guy has the cash to buy the speed even in the limited class. yes the Ford rs guy can still buy speed but at least not as much as the current rules.

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts

Quote
Reamer
Dont miss read my post either. I said a FORM of less rules. That is not the perfect wording. If your a team and are looking into a series you look at the rules 1 by 1 you decide if it fits what your looking for. When you come to the tire rules your brain explodes with all these potential options. i want whats best for me to be competative. You then spend spend spend on testing this that and the other. ort you listen to buddies or you look at what whos who has for tires and pic from there. Brakim shows pics of all his tire piles. Its sad he has that many different brands of tires trying to find what works best for his program. With a spec tire that is out the window. You got what every one else has now you can move on to better things then palying the super expensive tire game!

Jeff, you have been bemoaning over and over again how rally is not competitive and you want it to be more competitive for *you*. You highlight over and over again how a spec tire is going to make things more competitive.

So. Shelf your car and build a 2WD national car. Otherwise, you really don't care about personal "competition" but you do care about some promise of salvation where the Fairy Godmother of Rally is going to sprinkle the magical pixie dust on the 400 national competitors and "save rally".

Spec Tires anywhere in North American rally has no place - it will do nothing but reduce numbers by increasing costs.

North American rally doesn't have the entry numbers to support rules to 'improve' competition in any series. What are we saying here, that if everyone had the same tires, that sizeable gap between the top 2 or 3 or 4 (depending on series and class) would be dramatically reduced? Puhleeeaaase! As previously mentioned, there are much more spendy parts; diffs, dogs, motors, boingers, etc that create that gap.

Utter bull and distraction of thought and resources!

P.S. Another note on the CoupeDuQuebec rules, only 205 size gravel tires get the discount - so if that is not your tire, you get to pay full price...oh, and not only are they loosing entrants, they also lost one of their premier events. Charlevoix bailed from the series and is now part of the Canadian Eastern Championship.

Here is the place for a spec tire:

http://autoweek.com/article/wait-theres-more/get-ready-next-big-thing-racing-spec-land-yacht

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Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY