Rally Chat
Don\
Welcome! Log In Register

Advanced

Comparing 2 cars quantitatively with some known variables...

Posted by ReluctantGolf 
ReluctantGolf
Kevin Andrade
Mega Moderator
Location: Boston, MA
Join Date: 07/15/2013
Posts: 50

Rally Car:
VW Mk2 Golf for my rookie year in SCCA RallyX...MK2 GLI with 1.8T for my first event..


Re: Comparing 2 cars quantitatively with some known variables...
February 15, 2016 01:20PM
Quote
Cosworth
Unless you're choosing between rental cars at the airport, I would give preference to the vehicle that has the most aftermarket support and rally specific parts. Suspension, brakes, final drives, LSD diffs, engine, etc... And then the availability of spares.

But since its obvious car#2 is a 1.6L Fiesta, I would chose the Car#1.... because its obviously a 2L VW and it will make more sense than another $20k car in contention for last place.

you are right. car #2 is a fiesta and car #1 is a 2L golf (mk4 vintage). I am staring at that weight differential of close to 400lbs which from what I can tell is mostly distributed across the whole car with maybe an extra 50lbs in the engine bay. I own the fiesta already (I bought it as a daily and for general running around on the weekends) and have a fairly low cost basis for it.....probably pretty close to what I would need to pay for a very good condition mk4 with low miles.

The fiesta has next to no power upgrades from the stock figures but the availability of parts and support (LSD, gears, brakes etc) is very high. The golf has about the same availability of parts and LSD and brake upgrades but the power upgrades end somewhere higher than what is available to the Fiesta. For the mk4 golf, with very basic bolt-ons like a proper race header, exhaust and cam and chip install, it sounds like achieving about 145hp and about the same tq is very feasible. My question I guess is whether this increased amount of power compensates for the 400lbs weight difference between the two cars? Thats what I am trying to drive at....how would you compare the 2 cars given the weight differential but with the small bit of extra power on the heavier car?

I am trying to stay as stock as possible and stay more modern than old mk2 and 3. For this reason I am looking at the mk4 golf with a 2L
Please Login or Register to post a reply
NoCoast
Grant Hughes
Senior Moderator
Location: Denver, CO
Join Date: 01/11/2006
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 6,740

Rally Car:
Merkur



Re: Comparing 2 cars quantitatively with some known variables...
February 15, 2016 01:50PM
It's such a fine line between modern and ancient. With modern you get alot of benefits like rust free, better wiring typically, and less abuse but also a few distinct disadvantages such as more complicated electronics, CANBUS possibly, extra weight, etc. I do like the idea of keeping things closer to stock from a reliability standpoint though.
If I were choosing between the two I'd probably pick the Fiesta but that's because I've owned a Mk4 Golf TDI and the only thing I liked about the car was the fuel economy.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Josh Wimpey
Josh Wimpey
Godlike Moderator
Location: VA
Join Date: 12/27/2006
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 642

Rally Car:
Sneak the Golf


Re: Comparing 2 cars quantitatively with some known variables...
February 15, 2016 02:51PM
The mk4 golf is a bit bigger and heavier than a Fiesta for sure.

Who knows which one has the worst, most complicated, and most fussy to modify wiring....

The Golf can be lightened below 2900lbs quite easily and should end up well under 2700 ready to race unless you just cage it and don't trim the fat first---something you should do regardless of the chassis chosen and power available.

Power options are also limitless. With bolt-in engine swaps that easily make 300hp. And now with USRT making a cast manifold for the 2.0 motor that 1.8t plumbing hooks right up to, you don't even have to do a swap, just tuning and injectors. So, if you outgrow 2700lbs and 145hp, you are set for easy upgrade paths.



____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf
Please Login or Register to post a reply
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Mod Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,998

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Comparing 2 cars quantitatively with some known variables...
February 15, 2016 03:30PM
Quote
ReluctantGolf
Quote
Cosworth
Unless you're choosing between rental cars at the airport, I would give preference to the vehicle that has the most aftermarket support and rally specific parts. Suspension, brakes, final drives, LSD diffs, engine, etc... And then the availability of spares.

But since its obvious car#2 is a 1.6L Fiesta, I would chose the Car#1.... because its obviously a 2L VW and it will make more sense than another $20k car in contention for last place.

you are right. car #2 is a fiesta and car #1 is a 2L golf (mk4 vintage). I am staring at that weight differential of close to 400lbs which from what I can tell is mostly distributed across the whole car with maybe an extra 50lbs in the engine bay. I own the fiesta already (I bought it as a daily and for general running around on the weekends) and have a fairly low cost basis for it.....probably pretty close to what I would need to pay for a very good condition mk4 with low miles.

The fiesta has next to no power upgrades from the stock figures but the availability of parts and support (LSD, gears, brakes etc) is very high. The golf has about the same availability of parts and LSD and brake upgrades but the power upgrades end somewhere higher than what is available to the Fiesta. For the mk4 golf, with very basic bolt-ons like a proper race header, exhaust and cam and chip install, it sounds like achieving about 145hp and about the same tq is very feasible. My question I guess is whether this increased amount of power compensates for the 400lbs weight difference between the two cars? Thats what I am trying to drive at....how would you compare the 2 cars given the weight differential but with the small bit of extra power on the heavier car?

I am trying to stay as stock as possible and stay more modern than old mk2 and 3. For this reason I am looking at the mk4 golf with a 2L

Reason I said two columns is its easier to make straight across per-entage calculations
and then see % differences..Like 14% weight.
Everything is a comparison like compare and contrast.

Like 'this is 0,2% more, fuckit" this is 30% more, Hmmmmmmmmm" Or
Hmmmmm 14% weight more but 15% more torque and 20% shorter gearing---more torque multiplication, look veeeeery interestink"...

And then there IS the cost for mods...

As for the like to keep it closer to stock for "reliability"...Well there is a third alternative :learn how to make reliable stuff and do more yourself....but that takes effort and experience.. Who wants to do that? meh better to just have 125 stock ft/lbs and give away 30% in gearing..Easier.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Josh Wimpey
Josh Wimpey
Godlike Moderator
Location: VA
Join Date: 12/27/2006
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 642

Rally Car:
Sneak the Golf


Re: Comparing 2 cars quantitatively with some known variables...
February 15, 2016 04:27PM
a nice lookin mk4 and mk2 golf for sale over on specialstage.

The mk4 needs rally suspenders and a thicker bit of aluminium under the motor --- a smaller turbo maxxing out around 250hp probably wouldn't hurt either. The GTX2863 is smallish by street tuner standards but probably doesn't make full boost till 3700rpm or higher on a 1.8 liter. ALS could probably fix that problem too but may cost more than downsizing.

The mk2 is getting it's engine rebuilt to make it saleable. Has a way rad dogbox with proper ratios. Could also benefit from real gravel suspension rather than the short Bilstein "Rally" Group A stuff that is on there.



____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login