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Cage Design - *UPDATED*

Fly like an Eagle Talon
Vinnie
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1990 Eagle Talon AWD



Cage Design - *UPDATED*
April 07, 2016 04:28PM
Hi all, new to the forum, and new to the rally world in general. After a few seasons of hillclimbing here in the Northeast, I'm finally getting a cage installed in my 1990 Eagle Talon the next few weeks and plan on adding stage rally to the hillclimbs and rallyx.

I'm taking the car to the cage builder tomorrow with this design. Doing some last second modifications now. Any tips are appreciated!

I updated this over the course of the day... new picture is current.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2016 01:45PM by Fly like an Eagle Talon.
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Doivi Clarkinen
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Re: Cage Design
April 08, 2016 03:20AM
No need to use 1.75" for everything. Save some weight and and gain a little room here and there and use 1.5"x.095 for everything except the main hoop, side laterals, windshield header bar, and sill bars. Also print out the rollcage rules (RA and FIA Appendix J, article 253) and leave them with the cage builder if they are not familiar with rally cages.
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hoche
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Re: Cage Design
April 08, 2016 03:44AM
Having over the pasting spent a fair amount of time clambering in and out of a rally Talon, I'm not sure whether to be encouraging or horrified. smiling smiley

Make sure you collect enough of the irreplaceable spare parts like shifter cables.

Anyway, your basic cage design looks pretty good. From a technical standpoint, you've pretty much got everything right, except that you don't show the gussets you'll need. (And yes, I see your note that they're on the following page, but you didn't include that.) You'll need them in two sides of the X's in the doorbars, and at junction where your A-pillar reinforcement bar crosses the upper doorbar. You'll also need them on two sides of the X in the main hoop. If you're going to run the harness bar in the plane of the main hoop as you have it drawn, you'll have to put the gussets on the top and bottom parts of the X.

If you can, before you have that harness bar welded in, try to fit your seats, and examine where the shoulder harnesses will come through the seat backs, and then double-check your head&neck restraint's requirements on that. The H&N's that use the harnesses generally have a requirement that the harnesses angle down at a certain angle and are no more than N inches long. You may find that you'll want to run the harness bar slightly behind the main hoop.

It's good that you have the low part of your doorbar X's slightly forward. Since the car's so cramped, you'll find that you'll be getting in and out feet first and getting your foot over the doorbar when you're in the seat can be a challenge.

You may want to include some indication of how you want your cage's feet to be made.

You should also consider how you want your seats mounted and where your lap and sub belts will mount.



Self-righteous douche canoe
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Vinnie
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Re: Cage Design
April 08, 2016 06:48AM
Quote
Doivi Clarkinen
No need to use 1.75" for everything. Save some weight and and gain a little room here and there and use 1.5"x.095 for everything except the main hoop, side laterals, windshield header bar, and sill bars. Also print out the rollcage rules (RA and FIA Appendix J, article 253) and leave them with the cage builder if they are not familiar with rally cages.

I was thinking the same thing, and actually had the cage as being almost entirely 1.5" tubing... Then realized that I need 1.75" for the Mt Washington Hillclimb, which I really hope to do next year!

Additionally, this car will not be light (probably around 3200 lbs without anything in it), so I think the larger diameter tubing and extra stiffness associated with it could help in a crash.

Yup good idea, the cage builder builds circle track cars normally, but has built two rally cars recently. I'm giving him some detailed drawings and the NASA rulebook!
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Fly like an Eagle Talon
Vinnie
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1990 Eagle Talon AWD



Re: Cage Design
April 08, 2016 07:03AM
Quote
hoche
Having over the pasting spent a fair amount of time clambering in and out of a rally Talon, I'm not sure whether to be encouraging or horrified. smiling smiley

Make sure you collect enough of the irreplaceable spare parts like shifter cables.

Anyway, your basic cage design looks pretty good. From a technical standpoint, you've pretty much got everything right, except that you don't show the gussets you'll need. (And yes, I see your note that they're on the following page, but you didn't include that.) You'll need them in two sides of the X's in the doorbars, and at junction where your A-pillar reinforcement bar crosses the upper doorbar. You'll also need them on two sides of the X in the main hoop. If you're going to run the harness bar in the plane of the main hoop as you have it drawn, you'll have to put the gussets on the top and bottom parts of the X.

If you can, before you have that harness bar welded in, try to fit your seats, and examine where the shoulder harnesses will come through the seat backs, and then double-check your head&neck restraint's requirements on that. The H&N's that use the harnesses generally have a requirement that the harnesses angle down at a certain angle and are no more than N inches long. You may find that you'll want to run the harness bar slightly behind the main hoop.

It's good that you have the low part of your doorbar X's slightly forward. Since the car's so cramped, you'll find that you'll be getting in and out feet first and getting your foot over the doorbar when you're in the seat can be a challenge.

You may want to include some indication of how you want your cage's feet to be made.

You should also consider how you want your seats mounted and where your lap and sub belts will mount.

You should be encouraged! Be happy that another Talon will be out there! smileys with beer It's funny you mention the 1990 shifter cables, I actually have brand new ones, extremepsi.com said I bought the last set they had!

I'm attaching the updated drawing... I wish I could send you the .pdf with the other 7 pages that go into much more detail. As for the gussets, I have them in all the locations you mentioned, but have since changed my design to double-X instead of double-V (gives more headroom!). So now I also will need gussets in two more spots I think? In the roof and in the backstay diagonals?

Thanks for the harness bar tip, I am planning on having a bar bent around the back of the main hoop (like you said) to give some clearance between the seat and where they're mounted. Made a note to the cage builder to do that last so I can get the seats just right first! Have some Sparco Evos on the way with weld-in mounts and side mounts.

Good point, I should give some feet dimenions, although I'm giving him some pictures of mounting feet from another DSM so that should help.

My biggest question for you: Where did you mount the lap and anti-sub belts? I heard that you can mount them to the factory belt mounting locations, is this true? Or did you have to weld in plates?

Thanks for the wise DSM advice, I may need to talk to you more!
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Thomas Kimsey
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Re: Cage Design
April 08, 2016 07:12AM
Quote
Fly like an Eagle Talon
Yup good idea, the cage builder builds circle track cars normally, but has built two rally cars recently. I'm giving him some detailed drawings and the NASA rulebook!

Bob knows what he is doing by now with the rules. Just make sure you have him put the RA gussets in. He forgot them on Dan's car.
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Vinnie
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Re: Cage Design
April 08, 2016 08:34AM
Quote
Thomas Kimsey
Bob knows what he is doing by now with the rules. Just make sure you have him put the RA gussets in. He forgot them on Dan's car.

Hi Tom, are you the guy with the red Merkur? Sick car! You may have seen me at a few rallycrosses last year in the Eagle...

Are these the RA gussets? The ones connecting the A-pillar bar and the door bars? I'm using FIA Art-253 to make the design because I feel like that covers everything... I hope it does at least. Is Bob making a cage for you too?

My cage design is pretty over the top with detail... hoping to cover all the bases so nothing gets missed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2016 08:35AM by Fly like an Eagle Talon.
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NoCoast
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Re: Cage Design
April 08, 2016 09:04AM
I'll need you to scan and send me the documents before I can comment. smiling smiley
I like how you note things on there like the 253-49 door bar requirements on page 2.

General design looks fine. I concur with Dave Clark on using 1.5" where allowed, especially in the roof V. I would also advise bends up near front of those to get more head room, unless you are 49" tall (125 cm), you will need all the headroom you can get in a Talon. If you are taller, get a chiropractor as your codriver.

We always do harness bars after seats are mounted. Sometimes we do harness bars months after we've finished the cage.

I usually do about a 15 degree bend on a-pillar bar and move it down the half lateral a bit to get knuckle clearance for steering wheel. It has to be within 4" or so of the windshield bar so you have some space to move it.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2016 09:21AM by NoCoast.
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Thomas Kimsey
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Re: Cage Design
April 08, 2016 09:08AM
Quote
Fly like an Eagle Talon
Quote
Thomas Kimsey
Bob knows what he is doing by now with the rules. Just make sure you have him put the RA gussets in. He forgot them on Dan's car.

Hi Tom, are you the guy with the red Merkur? Sick car! You may have seen me at a few rallycrosses last year in the Eagle...

Are these the RA gussets? The ones connecting the A-pillar bar and the door bars? I'm using FIA Art-253 to make the design because I feel like that covers everything... I hope it does at least. Is Bob making a cage for you too?

My cage design is pretty over the top with detail... hoping to cover all the bases so nothing gets missed.

Yeah that is my car, I remember your car as well.

I think you have the A pillar reinforcement gussets backwards. See
http://www.rally-america.com/info/2008_Rollcage.pdf

Also why are you calling out a sheet metal gusset for the main hoop to forward leg reinforcement? Did you mean to just call out the bar?
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Snidewhips
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Re: Cage Design
April 08, 2016 09:33AM
Fly like an Eagle Talon
Vinnie
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Re: Cage Design
April 08, 2016 10:55AM
Quote
Thomas Kimsey
Yeah that is my car, I remember your car as well.

I think you have the A pillar reinforcement gussets backwards. See
http://www.rally-america.com/info/2008_Rollcage.pdf

Also why are you calling out a sheet metal gusset for the main hoop to forward leg reinforcement? Did you mean to just call out the bar?

I've seen them done both ways... I wonder if you have to do it just like the picture or if you can also have them like they are in the drawing? Maybe I'll try to get a hold of Don Taylor today and ask him.

Good catch on that bar there. I had a gusset there before and put in a tube instead and didn't change all the wording, I'll change it, thanks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2016 10:56AM by Fly like an Eagle Talon.
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Thomas Kimsey
Thomas Kimsey
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Re: Cage Design
April 08, 2016 10:59AM
If you scan them in for Grant I can also review it in detail tonight if you would like.
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Fly like an Eagle Talon
Vinnie
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1990 Eagle Talon AWD



Re: Cage Design
April 08, 2016 11:16AM
Quote
NoCoast
I'll need you to scan and send me the documents before I can comment. smiling smiley
I like how you note things on there like the 253-49 door bar requirements on page 2.

General design looks fine. I concur with Dave Clark on using 1.5" where allowed, especially in the roof V. I would also advise bends up near front of those to get more head room, unless you are 49" tall (125 cm), you will need all the headroom you can get in a Talon. If you are taller, get a chiropractor as your codriver.

We always do harness bars after seats are mounted. Sometimes we do harness bars months after we've finished the cage.

I usually do about a 15 degree bend on a-pillar bar and move it down the half lateral a bit to get knuckle clearance for steering wheel. It has to be within 4" or so of the windshield bar so you have some space to move it.

I see you're the guy from rally.build, I can email the plans to you if you want! I bought my Sparco harnesses from you a month or two ago, I was referred to you by Emmanuel!

Luckily I'm relatively small (5'7". 150lbs), I'll look for a small co driver too tongue sticking out smiley I actually changed the design since last night... found out that with an X roof bar I can gain headroom. Maybe I'll just change the roof bar to 1.5x.120... I need the thickness for Climb to the Clouds rules.

Really good point on bending the A-pillar bar for steering wheel clearance... I definitely did not think of that! I'll have to go sit in the car and see what the clearances look like.
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NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Re: Cage Design
April 08, 2016 12:28PM
Don't forget.gussets in roof X if you do that design!
Are Climb to Clouds unique ruleset? I thought they had rally rules.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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Thomas Kimsey
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Re: Cage Design
April 08, 2016 12:54PM
Quote
NoCoast
Don't forget.gussets in roof X if you do that design!
Are Climb to Clouds unique ruleset? I thought they had rally rules.

There is a Rally America class then a separate Hill Climb class.
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