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Very enlightening interview with a friend from Norway on analytical driving---and learning.

Posted by john vanlandingham 
NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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The recurring problem I have is trying to nose end first with not enough speed means losing speed to keep from going too deep then you end up losing more scrubbing on the exit as you mash throttle in anger over the first error and end up with a mass diarrhea of speed. Though this is favorable to the overbrake putz in then mash the throttle.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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Lundefaret
Ole-Martin Lundefaret
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Location: Norway
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Eric Ewert
Thanks for sharing that John, Really cool article. Wonder if he has any info on pacenotes available for a read?

Also noticed this...

"Then a Volvo Original, then a Group H Volvo, which turned out to be an expensive affair. To cut it short I basically managed to do about every mistake you can do in the sport of rallying. Both in terms of driving, in terms of what car to drive, how to straighten out the logistics, how to best manage it financially, you know, EVERY mistake that it’s possible to make"

Wonder what made the group h so expensive to run? Was it specifically the volvo he is referring to or the series in general? I can't imagine building a volvo for that series (a competitive spec) would be any more than any flavour of fwd car, a rwd opel, e36 bimmer, etc.

Hello Eric, John told me he had posted about Nose End First on this forum, so I tought I should try to answer some questions.
What made the Group H Volvo so expensive to run?
Well, firstly it was quite high spec. Øhlins, NA engine with about 240 hp, standing suspension in rear whith watt link and four link, it had a dog box, etc etc.

I didnt have the knowledge on how to prepeare the car between the events, and the mechanics I had with me didnt either, so we ended up always lagging behind. Parts braking or under performing, and we having to change them. And then the engine started to act up, which ended in a total melt down.

Had I known better I would have bought a type of Group N front wheel drive. Then it would have been less effort and cost in the garage, and more driving. smiling smiley
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DanielSL
Daniel
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john vanlandingham
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DanielSL
Nose End First, huh? Me - thinks this guy has gotten it right...

OK you got it..Glad to see you picked that up...Now you should see the problem as THAT relates to playing grass-o-crossen...The average speed is so low that you can't really drive every corner like that..

John;

From what I have observed at the last three events, there may only be one corner per run in the entire 2 to 2:30 run that you can get the speed up to do this techniques correctly.

I am working out my transmission ratios right now, and it looks like with conservatively shifting at 5750 rpm, in the meat of the powerband, I can still get 55 mph. So I will never need beyond 2nd gear, unless I attend some Rally Sprints.

What makes me think the photo I posted was relevant to the thread is that the tires are pointed straight ahead. So as the car finishes its slide, and traction is good again, the car is already pointed perfectly to squirt the throttle and shoot out of the corner. Am I starting to get it a little more coherently?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2016 01:14PM by DanielSL.
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Lundefaret
Ole-Martin Lundefaret
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Eric Ewert
Thanks for sharing that John, Really cool article. Wonder if he has any info on pacenotes available for a read?

I could write you a typical example:

(As a base I use the numerical 1-6 system, but that is individual from driver to driver. I dont care if a driver uses "carrot over fast potato" as long as we end up driving the line we want, with the speed and rotation we want.)

Long Line in to half long 4 right keep in, brake over 30
Turn 1 left 200

This describes a wider entry in the first fast right to keep in to the exit setting the car up for the very important 1 left (at junction), since its a long straight after.
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Lundefaret
Ole-Martin Lundefaret
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dreamsofjvl
I don't understand why anyone thinks that interview meant anything or was helpful. Literally nothing was said beyond "I do this thing to help people, but I'm going to be really vague and not tell you, buy my stuff".

Jeez, the guy sounds like me selling stuff drinking smiley

Edit-
Also Grant, looks like that thread was removed. Methinks a strategy to earn money has been implemented, wouldn't want all that valuable info out there floating around for free! winking smiley

You are half right.
I used that thread to try to get my foot in with a top driver. That worked (Hayden Paddon), and then I didnt want that thread hanging around for Haydens competitors.
But off course I also want to make this in to a living. And I am writing a book, based on the posts on the forum, but off course also a lot more.

My main priority is to work for one or a couple of top drivers, but I once was a club driver and I know how much I would have apriciated this kind of knowledge/help then, so I have put together a "program" for club drivers, and will try to do this when I have the time (work with Hayden takes a lot of time, and together with my brother we have some other projects to that needs attention.)
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northcoast
Kevin Morrison
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it's the "brake over 30" I need to work on. Either I've scrubbed too much speed or not enough.

Ole, what is your club "program"?
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Lundefaret
Ole-Martin Lundefaret
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dreamsofjvl
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john vanlandingham
No comments on what's presented--which is several layers of interesting?

I do find it interesting that he thinks the pinnacle of a rallycar is a Saab 96. It'd be fun to see someone build one into a more modern spec and have some fun in 2wd in North America for shits and giggles.

As for what we are looking for, there was a thread on motorsportsforums.com that had a lot of the information Ole from Norway was talking about. It appears to have been removed, as you can find the URL to it, but it goes to a "this page is no longer available" page.

Clearly Ole has found a money maker, I don't blame him, just sucks when something that was once public and free goes behind the closed doors for the sake of making a buck.

I actually have a dream of building a very special Saab 96 with an american Motus V4 engine, but then I would need to make a couple of bucks first smiling smiley
But I dont think the Saab 96 is the pinnacle of rally cars (Modern WRC cars are and will be the pinnacle), but it was very important in forming the modern type of rally driving. (MINI was also important)
If we say that the Audi Urquattro is the beginning of the modern rally car, it would have been very difficult to drive that car if not the Scandinavian type of left foot braking was perfected in the Saab 96.
Walter Röhrl did not think you needed to left foot brake to drive the Audi, but soon found out the opposite. He then got tuition from Stig Blomquist, and took Nose End First to the next level.
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Lundefaret
Ole-Martin Lundefaret
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NoCoast
The recurring problem I have is trying to nose end first with not enough speed means losing speed to keep from going too deep then you end up losing more scrubbing on the exit as you mash throttle in anger over the first error and end up with a mass diarrhea of speed. Though this is favorable to the overbrake putz in then mash the throttle.

Yes
You need a surplus of speed (energy) to activate the chassis, and you use left foot braking to prolong the braking area to keep the chassis and diff(s) activated, and also having energy in the chassis so you can create weight transfer at the right moment to start accelration.
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dreamsofjvl
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Lundefaret

I used that thread to try to get my foot in with a top driver. That worked (Hayden Paddon), and then I didnt want that thread hanging around for Haydens competitors.

I am assuming that Lundefaret = Ole? If so, welcome to Rally Anarchy.

First, I have zero issue with you monetizing your knowledge. I am 100% on board with that, doesn't mean I can't be a bit sad that the info disappeared. But it is your prerogative to do so, and I do not fault you for it at all. Congratulations are in order for you starting a successful business.

Second, thank you for taking the time to explain a bit more of your thought processes. The interview originally posted was very vague and didn't say anything. You've helped clear that up.

Hopefully your techniques work towards making competitors faster around the world, which is a great thing!
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Lundefaret
Ole-Martin Lundefaret
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dreamsofjvl
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Lundefaret

I used that thread to try to get my foot in with a top driver. That worked (Hayden Paddon), and then I didnt want that thread hanging around for Haydens competitors.

I am assuming that Lundefaret = Ole? If so, welcome to Rally Anarchy.

First, I have zero issue with you monetizing your knowledge. I am 100% on board with that, doesn't mean I can't be a bit sad that the info disappeared. But it is your prerogative to do so, and I do not fault you for it at all. Congratulations are in order for you starting a successful business.

Second, thank you for taking the time to explain a bit more of your thought processes. The interview originally posted was very vague and didn't say anything. You've helped clear that up.

Hopefully your techniques work towards making competitors faster around the world, which is a great thing!

Thanks for welcoming me smiling smiley
(Yes, my name is Ole-Martin Lundefaret, the guy in the interview, Haydens coach)

The technique, and the coaching, has already proven its point. Especially with the victory in Argentina, and the victory on the El Condor Power Stage. And also in the way Hayden was able to bounce back from Portugal and Sardinia, something that took drivers like Neuville and Mikkelsen a very, very long time.
But this journey has just begun, and we are facing a very challenging rally in Finland, before we head for tarmac - where we still have a lot of work to do. But it wouldnt be any fun to climb Mount Everest if it was a 200 metre high mountain with an escalator to the top. As everybody else here on the forum I am in to rallying because it is a huge challenge, and that makes it so fascinating smiling smiley

Note: As you understand my main motive is to not give away to much to Haydens competitors. But write me an email, and I am sure I can send you most of what was on the forum.
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NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Quote
Lundefaret
Quote
NoCoast
The recurring problem I have is trying to nose end first with not enough speed means losing speed to keep from going too deep then you end up losing more scrubbing on the exit as you mash throttle in anger over the first error and end up with a mass diarrhea of speed. Though this is favorable to the overbrake putz in then mash the throttle.

Yes
You need a surplus of speed (energy) to activate the chassis, and you use left foot braking to prolong the braking area to keep the chassis and diff(s) activated, and also having energy in the chassis so you can create weight transfer at the right moment to start accelration.

Here is exactly what I keep doing. Sadly the first picture starts after I've had to correct to keep from driving into the ditch, the second picture is coming out and scrubbing more speed out of the corner. I'm a work in progress. smiling smiley

I will discuss it with business partners but we would love to work with you on coaching our driver for our 2017 rallying efforts. We are discussing a national championship effort in the Rally America series.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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Attachments:
open | download - 2016Temple Ryan 1.jpg (42.7 KB)
2016Temple Ryan 1.jpg
open | download - 2016Temple Ryan 3.jpg (47.9 KB)
2016Temple Ryan 3.jpg
Lundefaret
Ole-Martin Lundefaret
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NoCoast
Quote
Lundefaret
Quote
NoCoast
The recurring problem I have is trying to nose end first with not enough speed means losing speed to keep from going too deep then you end up losing more scrubbing on the exit as you mash throttle in anger over the first error and end up with a mass diarrhea of speed. Though this is favorable to the overbrake putz in then mash the throttle.

Yes
You need a surplus of speed (energy) to activate the chassis, and you use left foot braking to prolong the braking area to keep the chassis and diff(s) activated, and also having energy in the chassis so you can create weight transfer at the right moment to start accelration.

Here is exactly what I keep doing. Sadly the first picture starts after I've had to correct to keep from driving into the ditch, the second picture is coming out and scrubbing more speed out of the corner. I'm a work in progress. smiling smiley

I will discuss it with business partners but we would love to work with you on coaching our driver for our 2017 rallying efforts. We are discussing a national championship effort in the Rally America series.

Tough its off course difficult to judge exactly by two pictures, I think I have a good idea of what is happening. I hope its okay that I write it in public.
The picture from earliest in the corner shows that you are steering in to the corner, and have no rotation. Here you should have a wider line, or attack in to the corner with rotation (oversteer).
To go to early in on entry is the classic rally mistake. It feels safer, but is both more risk and slower. I call it to be a "slave of the inner radius". The inside radius of a corner is the slowest line, and its also the most dangerous line when it comes to hitting something on the inside, or understeering of, or understeering on the exit with exit oversteer (that hurts time and increases risk of hitting something with the outside rear).
So if you would have driven a "Line" here, you would have had a later entry, more rotation, and straighter exit (made an illustration, with branding and all) to try to explain it.

The red dot is what I call the Touch Point (or as many would reffer it to, the apex, but I dont want things to get mixed up). A Nose End First-line often demands a delayed touch point.

If you want to contact me do it either on: https://www.facebook.com/noseendfirst/
Or Lundefaret@gmail.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2016 03:00PM by Lundefaret.
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Attachments:
open | download - Nose End First 2016 Temple Ryan 1.jpg (53.4 KB)
Nose End First 2016 Temple Ryan 1.jpg
fiasco
Andrew Steere
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Ole, throw your full name and location in your User Info/profile. It's just about the only rule we have here. Otherwise, welcome to the troll-fest, and I can hardly wait to hear what John Vanlandingham has to say about left foot braking...I find myself doing it all the time...in my daily driver automatic transmission Volvo 850 GLT. smiling smiley Not so much in anything with a manual gearbox, but I only drive in 24 Hours of Lemons events...rally is too damn expensive.



Andrew Steere
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Quote
NoCoast
The recurring problem I have is trying to nose end first with not enough speed means losing speed to keep from going too deep then you end up losing more scrubbing on the exit as you mash throttle in anger over the first error and end up with a mass diarrhea of speed. Though this is favorable to the overbrake putz in then mash the throttle.
You need an old solid rear axle ATV to play with as they don't really turn so well and you are forced to do this if you want to cover ground quickly, cheap and fun.



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
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Eric Ewert
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Lundefaret
Quote
Eric Ewert
Thanks for sharing that John, Really cool article. Wonder if he has any info on pacenotes available for a read?

Also noticed this...

"Then a Volvo Original, then a Group H Volvo, which turned out to be an expensive affair. To cut it short I basically managed to do about every mistake you can do in the sport of rallying. Both in terms of driving, in terms of what car to drive, how to straighten out the logistics, how to best manage it financially, you know, EVERY mistake that it’s possible to make"

Wonder what made the group h so expensive to run? Was it specifically the volvo he is referring to or the series in general? I can't imagine building a volvo for that series (a competitive spec) would be any more than any flavour of fwd car, a rwd opel, e36 bimmer, etc.

Hello Eric, John told me he had posted about Nose End First on this forum, so I tought I should try to answer some questions.
What made the Group H Volvo so expensive to run?
Well, firstly it was quite high spec. Øhlins, NA engine with about 240 hp, standing suspension in rear whith watt link and four link, it had a dog box, etc etc.

I didnt have the knowledge on how to prepeare the car between the events, and the mechanics I had with me didnt either, so we ended up always lagging behind. Parts braking or under performing, and we having to change them. And then the engine started to act up, which ended in a total melt down.

Had I known better I would have bought a type of Group N front wheel drive. Then it would have been less effort and cost in the garage, and more driving. smiling smiley

Hey Ole!
Thanks for the reply. Got a few more questions for you after this post. Hopefully your ok with answering them.

Thats unfortunate that you killed a motor, do you know why it happened? Was it something preventable?

With a few people here building and running volvo's like myself do you have any advice on certain modifications/ specs to avoid with these cars to keep costs at a reasonable amount? The end goal with mine is to have it at a spec that sounds similar to yours (N/A motor with good output, already is 4 linked with taller coilovers, etc). Also do you have any suggestions on things you NEED to do with these cars? Sounds like you have plenty of knowledge with what breaks on them!


Quote
Lundefaret
Quote
Eric Ewert
Thanks for sharing that John, Really cool article. Wonder if he has any info on pacenotes available for a read?

I could write you a typical example:

(As a base I use the numerical 1-6 system, but that is individual from driver to driver. I dont care if a driver uses "carrot over fast potato" as long as we end up driving the line we want, with the speed and rotation we want.)

Long Line in to half long 4 right keep in, brake over 30
Turn 1 left 200

This describes a wider entry in the first fast right to keep in to the exit setting the car up for the very important 1 left (at junction), since its a long straight after.

As far as the pacenotes you say the 1-6 system is your baseline. Is this still what you recommend even for us just starting out? Or should we try keeping it simpler? So far i've found pacenotes a little tricky to do a good job of so if you could offer a few key points to focus on with them that could prove very useful. Your example above makes sense but with where im at currently it would be too much to absorb in the short amount of time available, im simply not Hayden.
I've always been curious what the folks running group H and group F in finland use but unfortunately the language barrier has prevented me from understanding.

Thanks again Ole, might have to send you an email in the near future. Also I might need to try and incorporate "carrot into fast potato" into the next rallies pacenotes. That is hularious!
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