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So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?)

Posted by dreamsofjvl 
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Alex Staidle
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Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?)
November 16, 2016 10:27AM
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Vincent Gagnon
And I forgot to mention, they are building zero cars!
Not everyone (matt) agrees with me, but I've always though that caged opening cars are neither needed nor a good idea.

I think that for the "0" car its a good idea. Coming from a codriver who has been upside-down in a "0" car.



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dreamsofjvl
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Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?)
November 16, 2016 10:40AM
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Vincent Gagnon
And I forgot to mention, they are building zero cars!
Not everyone (matt) agrees with me, but I've always though that caged opening cars are neither needed nor a good idea.

I think that for the "0" car its a good idea. Coming from a codriver who has been upside-down in a "0" car.

I am in agreement with Keith, all it would do is promote this sort of bad behaviour. There are approximately 0 reasons a 0 car should be on its roof.
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Alex Staidle
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Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?)
November 16, 2016 11:06AM
So the ubiquitous argument for safety goes out the window here then?



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dreamsofjvl
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Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?)
November 16, 2016 11:16AM
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So the ubiquitous argument for safety goes out the window here then?

I'm always anti-safety spinning smiley sticking its tongue out But further to that, if there is never a situation where Car 0 needs a cage, why would it need a cage? Because if you are arguing from a safety perspective, then ANY car that sets foot on a stage road should be caged.

Keith may be in more of a predicament with his stance on safety.
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Alex Staidle
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Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?)
November 16, 2016 11:23AM
Typically, the "0" is the fastest pre-race car and is just doing a final check. They are also thus still on an just closed road. So two things really.

1. They are still going a bit quick. They all do it. All of them. Not as fast as competitors, unless you compare to the back of the pack. But enough that having a caged car is worthwhile.

2. Possible encounters with traffic since people have attempted to when the zero cars are running.

its not like its hard to find a caged car to use. So why not?



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Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?)
November 16, 2016 11:30AM
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So the ubiquitous argument for safety goes out the window here then?
Far from it.
First, I recognize each organiser has their own way of doing things and that not every event will run course cars the same way or have the same expectations. However, it would be fairly universal that any of the course cars not completing the stage will fuck up the event and probably result in a cancelled stage. If you're in an event that allows the first car to start before the last opening car has completed the stage, then that car rolling can also have a significant impact on the results of the event AND create a situation where the first car on the road comes across a stricken car when they have no expectation of it. (We've seen this - and course cars being caught - in the WRC and ERC for sure... but it is neither funny nor right.)

What I ask of my course opening crews is that they bring a reliable car and allow themselves the time to complete the stage safely at a pace no faster than what you'd see in a 'brisk' TSD. If a course car driver rolled at one of my events, they likely wouldn't be back in that role. (Of course there will always be mitigating circumstances.)

As an organiser of several events in Western Canada, I get approached regularly by people thinking course opening roles would be great to 'learn' the sport or a cheap way to get some practice/shakedown in. It isn't, at least not at my events.

I've been at events in a sanctioning body role where I've seen course cars go flying past obvious safety concerns that I would include in their responsibilities to fix. In these events it was clear the drivers were just out to play and didn't understand the scope and importance of the role (at one event it was every course car, including the sweep vehicles.)

The TLDR version is that none of the course cars can afford to leave the road, so there is absolutely no need for a cage. (Before anyone jumps on this, the 0 car at Big White will be a caged car that comes with the trio of course cars we're using... and with that cage come helmets, proper seats, proper harnesses, and HNRs)
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Alex Staidle
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Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?)
November 16, 2016 11:34AM
I agree that they are still a safety car and thus should be looking for safety. There is also a clear distinction between those who have experience working as a safety car and those who would be new. Good chance to miss or mishandle safety concerns.

There is likely no "right" answer to this then. Just a preference for the organizer.



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Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?)
November 16, 2016 11:42AM
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Typically, the "0" is the fastest pre-race car and is just doing a final check. They are also thus still on an just closed road. So two things really.

1. They are still going a bit quick. They all do it. All of them. Not as fast as competitors, unless you compare to the back of the pack. But enough that having a caged car is worthwhile.

2. Possible encounters with traffic since people have attempted to when the zero cars are running.

its not like its hard to find a caged car to use. So why not?

Possible encounters with traffic is indicative of other serious holes in stage security that are simply not acceptable. If you have a system that allows that to happen between 00 and 0 in a way that it is a concern for 0's safety, then there is nothing stopping that same thing from happening between 0 and 1, or after a long delay between any of the cars on stage.
Radio blockers are a HUGE part of the safety network for these scenarios, when they do happen.

Further, I always instruct my opening crew to drive in a way that allows them to avoid collisions with oncoming traffic. I've had it happen to me as a 0 car where I had on-coming traffic and it isn't fun.

For the hell of it I'll repeat what I said in my other post.
Course cars can't afford to go off the road and need to bring a reliable car and drive accordingly. The reason to not allow a cage is to remove that sense of 'I'm more protected so I can take more chances.' Also, to avoid pushing down the cost of helmets, seats, belts, and HNRs.
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Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?)
November 16, 2016 11:46AM
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There is likely no "right" answer to this then. Just a preference for the organizer.
Absolutely.
I would stand firm on the requirement for full safety gear (less the onesies) in a caged course car though. Having seen a 'slow' accident without a HNR cause life altering injuries and very nearly cost a life, the minute a helmet goes on, so does the rest in my mind.
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Vincent Gagnon
The same thing that I just wrote
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Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?)
November 16, 2016 12:23PM
I think you gurs are missing the point here.

Inscription is now 850$.
They had 8 entries.
They are building fucking zero cars.

thumbs up



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Keith Morison
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Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?)
November 16, 2016 01:00PM
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Vincent Gagnon
I think you gurs are missing the point here.

Inscription is now 850$.
They had 8 entries.
They are building fucking zero cars.

thumbs up

This is RallyAnarchy... missing the point is to be expected.

Entry fees for bikes are $600... wonder why they are $250 less expensive that cars (and only got one entry.) Any idea if SxSs are charged bike or car rates?

2 of the 3 side by sides DNF'd because of a 'belt,' which I am assuming is a drive belt. I made my way through some comments on line an it looks as if the SxSs have some concerns that the drive belts won't survive tires with aggressive studding. (Looks like they've found a spec tire sponsor for side by sides as well)

All I know is that I would hate to be the guy making inventory decisions about the 'sweden stud' tire they have as a spec tire. (Which online chatter says is a semi-custom build for the CXE)
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aj_johnson
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Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?)
November 16, 2016 01:01PM
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Vincent Gagnon
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aj_johnson
Not that I care to participate in the argument, that was an existing stage car with new paint and new motor and new fancy trans. I have no real clue but I'd assume the opportunity for testing as a 0 car would be a big bonus.


Da fuck are you babbling about?

Isn't that the old platto Quattro that ran a few years ago?
I agree with your sentiments on entry count and fees. Lackluster.
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NoCoast
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Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?)
November 17, 2016 02:46PM
Are you guys talking about Seed 9? I thought they only had like six entries?



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Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?)
November 17, 2016 03:56PM
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NoCoast
Are you guys talking about Seed 9? I thought they only had like six entries?

They are talking about Rallye Portneuf in Quebec - 5 cars, 1 bike and 3 Side-by-sides.
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Vincent Gagnon
The same thing that I just wrote
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Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?)
November 17, 2016 06:41PM
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NoCoast
Are you guys talking about Seed 9? I thought they only had like six entries?

They are talking about Rallye Portneuf in Quebec - 5 cars, 1 bike and 3 Side-by-sides.

What a shame.



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If they don't give you work, ask for bread.
If they do not give you work or bread, then take bread.

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