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Merits of the MK3 Golf

Posted by SeamusMcC 
dreamsofjvl
Sancho Panza
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Re: Merits of the MK3 Golf
April 25, 2017 02:56PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Nice..Now aside from the truly shitty suspension sounds like a decent bet..
So post the actual gear ratios...and links to final drives..
Decent useable diffs?? Kusco, Kazz? how much really?

You've looked at the suspension, so why is it truly shitty? My defense is based on the cars merits versus most other fwd cars currently available. Civics usually don't DNF due to suspension issues, but due to crashing it seems. You can get sufficient travel out of the Civics (again, relative to everything else).

Final Drive 4.9 - $584
http://www.teammfactory.com/catalog/partno/MF-TRS-02D49

ZC Transmission Ratios
3.25
1.944
1.346
1.033
.878

Diff
http://www.teammfactory.com/catalog/partno/MF-TRS-10D15A
$900

Close ratio gear kit if you want to skip getting the more difficult to find transmission:
http://www.kingmotorsports.com/p-4067-gear-x-d-series-individual-gear-high-1st.aspx
http://www.kingmotorsports.com/p-4066-gear-x-d-series-close-ratio-helical-cut-gear-set-1.aspx

And that's assuming all new.

Now, I personally wouldn't do this. You can get a sequential with whatever ratios, final drive, and plate type lsd for $8k usd that is ready to go from quaife. But you asked for info, there it is. A close ratio synchro box with plate lsd for about $2500usd. Or you could step up to a dogbox for ~$4500usd.

Is it perfect? No, but no car is. And certainly, I believe anyways, more doable for the average joe than fabbing up new towers and 4-links in most rwd cars. And it'll be a lot of fun for the money.
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Merits of the MK3 Golf
April 25, 2017 06:08PM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
Quote
john vanlandingham

More like anywhere from 1/10 to 1/3....
You can type, i know you can so address these known eventual chronic problem areas:

Ring and pinions
LSD
Eventual close ratio gear sets..
a gearshifter than works
Drive axles which are not a constant threat of failure
Rear whatever that does not constantly bend
Rear stub that do not constantly bend.
Rear disc set up consistent with established well known and accepted norms

R&P -- Not-needed if you run the MTS 3-4-5 gears with a stock 3.8x or 3.94 R&P

LSD -- Gripper $1100 http://gripperdifferentials.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=45_26&products_id=71

Gears -- MTS 3rd, 4th & 5th gears ~$1200 http://www.mts-motorsport.com/epages/61752271.sf/en_US/?ObjectPath=/Shops/61752271/Categories/Getriebetechnik/Gangpaare

Shifter -- stock works fine with some simple and cheap fresh pieces of delrin

Axles -- The outer CVs are an issue once you make any torque. You can swap to 5-llug everything and run the larger VR6 units. OR, I am working on re-splined hubs to accept the excellend Audi 80 outer CVs with bolt rather than nut. So, either junkyard parts or about $200 solves the problem

Rear beam not bending -- I am not convinced this is a big problem if you dont drive in the ditch all the time. Otherwise, triangulation is as easy as zap-zap as you would say.

rear stubs -- 2 options available. MK4 Golf adapters are available for bolt-on junk-yard parts (see Culbertson) as as mk4 Polo stubs for more $$ (see Chris Zanis)

Rear disc --- What is the problem again? You think these cars with only about 650lbs of weight on the rear wheels needs bigger rear brakes?

Grand total --- about $2600 plus some junkyard bits? I fail to see how this makes a VW anywhere from 3 to 10 times as expensive as building a Volvo.

Meanwhile, in Volvo land, ALL it takes is a whole bunch'a fabrication with free materials that any moron can do in their garage in like 45 minutes right?
I'd be looking hard at one of these if I already didn't have a gear set, 4.24 or 3.94 depending on what motor you have works with variant B........ $1586USD gets a whole gearset, https://www.drivesport.ca/collections/synchronized-gear-kits/products/vw-02a-j-synchro-gear-kits



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
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hoche
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Re: Merits of the MK3 Golf
April 25, 2017 06:41PM
Those are 02A/02J gearsets. Not 020s.


Who is DriveSport anyway? Never heard of them.



Self-righteous douche canoe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2017 06:42PM by hoche.
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Merits of the MK3 Golf
April 25, 2017 06:51PM
Quote
hoche
Those are 02A/02J gearsets. Not 020s. Yes indeed, if doing a Mk3 I'd start with a VR6 car for the brakes,CVs, hydro clutch, cable shift get a corrado or Passat 4cyl 02A/subframe and one of those kits, then no screwing around at all. 15" 5x100 rims are the 14" 4x100 of a decade ago for availability.


Who is DriveSport anyway? Never heard of them. Company is partly owned by Peter K, the kits are of Czech origin. Anyone like yourself with a rally resume would likely get an even better deal as he is trying to get more kits in the rally market.
http://www.sqsracing.com



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2017 06:55PM by ElectroTech.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Merits of the MK3 Golf
April 25, 2017 09:49PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Nice..Now aside from the truly shitty suspension sounds like a decent bet..
So post the actual gear ratios...and links to final drives..
Decent useable diffs?? Kusco, Kazz? how much really?

Quote

You've looked at the suspension, so why is it truly shitty?

The double wishbone morphodite shit is shit because its wimpy, has tiny weak ball joints, the weird goose neck cast iron POS thing that sweeps up fracture, the rear is made out a maybe max 3mm flat plate which is fine for UP and down motion but weak as taffy for any side loads---and in that its same as Fuck-us, or the new IRS Golf like the 2017 sitting here.




Quote

My defense is based on the cars merits versus most other fwd cars currently available. Civics usually don't DNF due to suspension issues, but due to crashing it seems. You can get sufficient travel out of the Civics (again, relative to everything else).

Maybe they're crashing because of shiit flexible 3mm think junk suspension.

Shit:



Not particularly short for a motor that revs like they do..
My own car is 5.43:1, 7000 gives about 105mph...0,92 top gear so 5.00 overall top gear..Right what we would expect..

Quote

ZC Transmission Ratios
3.25
1.944
1.346
1.033
.878

For a guy who thinks he knows enough to critize and lamely try to claim somebody only knows outdated stuff, you're really showing what a blowhard bullshitter you really are Vokes..

That's not a close ratio gear set...

That's barely different than waht comes in Xratties with a big turbo and big broad torque curve:
V6 Type 9:
1st: 3.36
2nd: 1.81
3rd: 1.26
4th: 1
5th: 0.82

Here are typical gearbox ratios in cars with 1600-2000cc motor and rwd
2.25, 1.53, 1.16, 1.0, 0.84
2.25, 1.53, 1.16, 1.0, 0.87
2.25, 1.53, 1.16, 1.0, 0.79
2.25, 1.53, 1.16, 1.0, 0.82
2.48, 1.69, 1.28, 1.0, 0.92
2.48, 1.69, 1.27, 1.0, 0.96
2.48, 1.69, 1.28, 1.0, 0.87
2.48, 1.69, 1.27, 1.0, 0.90
2.16, 1.53, 1.16, 1.0, 0.84
2.16, 1.53, 1.16, 1.0, 0.87
2.16, 1.53, 1.16, 1.0, 0.79
2.16, 1.53, 1.16, 1.0, 0.82
2.39, 1.69, 1.28, 1.0, 0.92
2.39, 1.69, 1.28, 1.0, 0.96
2.39, 1.69, 1.28, 1.0, 0.87

Look at the thing you are wildly claiming to be "close ratio" look especially at first gear ratio..
Instead of being an ignorant know-nothing fucking punk, multiply 1st ratio by that ring and pinion you thought was OK.. your shit comes in around 16:1

TOO SHORT, that would be a car length and a half in first before shift..

Multiply 5th times axle'...

Too Tall.... the car would be slow of would slow down o anything not dead flat...


Clearly you don't know what a close ratio rally gearbox is, only what other useless arrogant faggots have told you--birds of a feather.




That's nice.

Quote

Close ratio gear kit if you want to skip getting the more difficult to find transmission:
http://www.kingmotorsports.com/p-4067-gear-x-d-series-individual-gear-high-1st.aspx
http://www.kingmotorsports.com/p-4066-gear-x-d-series-close-ratio-helical-cut-gear-set-1.aspx

And that's assuming all new.

Meh, lotta money for three gears and leaving a 1st that becomes too short..

Quote

Now, I personally wouldn't do this. You can get a sequential with whatever ratios, final drive, and plate type lsd for $8k usd that is ready to go from quaife.

But you asked for info, there it is. A close ratio synchro box with plate lsd for about $2500usd. Or you could step up to a dogbox for ~$4500usd.


Yeah yeah, whatever...That's you..Your solution is obviously to spend spend spend...


Quote

Is it perfect? No, but no car is. And certainly, I believe anyways, more doable for the average joe than fabbing up new towers and 4-links in most rwd cars. And it'll be a lot of fun for the money.

I can't believe you thing adding towers is a lot of work. or 4 links..That was for decades considered normal prep before the sport saw a lotta guys just like you who are politely put basically useless whiners with zero mechanical skills or balls...in short mere consumers. Generations of drunk Irish and drunk English and Ozzies and Swedes and Finns could somehow manage to run a few welds and add towers so they could have long travel gravel cars and you didn't hear them whine and simper like you..

Maybe that's why they're so much faster than you even with all the crutches you have to have just to go flip every other event...

You probably never heard that you get out of an endevour what you put into it...And that didn't mean buy buy buy..

Whatever, your repellent consumerist attitude aside,
the Honda of some years can and ARE fun little cars with some curable weaknesses..
Killer engine potential....but costly for correct gearbox stuff...like ALL FWD cars..

Some---the ones with STRUTS ----have been proven quick in real fields (not in little events with 18 entries)...


I guess the question becomes: Which Honda have front struts?



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danster
Danny McGee
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Re: Merits of the MK3 Golf
April 26, 2017 08:01AM
O Seamus, where art thou...

Quote
SeamusMcC
I'm currently putting together a budget/plan for a cheap and fun 2wd. I have no formal racing background but was a big fan of FWD and dirt roads as a younger man and would like to get back into that hobby in more sanctioned format. My rough plan is to run the car primarily in grass-o-cross, ice racing, hill climb events and maybe a rally sprint for the first year to get seat time and maybe have save enough for a day or two of classes. It would be nice if the car could serve as platform to make the jump to stage rally going into 2019.

I don't interpret the above as requiring mega championship winning spec shizzle.

I've now had a revelation and decided that mk3s are shit.
Start with a 2 door mk4 shell as easily available and strong and safe as fook to start with and most of the mechanically weak parts associated with mk1, mk2, and mk3 platforms are already beefed up or improved.
Strip out and throw away all the interior trim and seats and a lot of weight will be lost.
Benefits are you start with a newer shell with room for cage and helmet wearing occupants, stronger flywheel / clutch, gearbox, shafts / CVs, rear stubs (though rear axle design not ideal), bigger brakes options
Plus loads of cheap donor cars for parts.

Caveat to the above is I still don't know if regs require that cars must retain their oem ecu and cat emissions systems. If you can toss all that guff then a decent torquey 2.0 8v ain't hard or expensive to put together.



Disappointingly not yet a Jackass
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DanielSL
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Re: Merits of the MK3 Golf
April 26, 2017 09:16AM
Danny;

So he should do what I did without the 1.8 T motor. LMAO!!! And without the 30+ page build thread with 15 + pages of JVL insults, and pompous braggadocios.

So find a 2004-2005 Mk. 4 Golf 2 door shell with a 2.0,and go to town. Good luck. Don't do anything that I did... ever... and you'll be fine.
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danster
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Re: Merits of the MK3 Golf
April 26, 2017 09:29AM
Quote
DanielSL
So he should do what I did without the 1.8 T motor. LMAO!!! And without the 30+ page build thread with 15 + pages of JVL insults, and pompous braggadocios.

So find a 2004-2005 Mk. 4 Golf 2 door shell with a 2.0,and go to town. Good luck. Don't do anything that I did... ever... and you'll be fine.

TBF you took a lot of justified flack. All that wittering on about turbo tunes, ridiculously larger brake / wheel / tyre combos for 2nd gear hooning round a field, excessive procurement and application of stickers, and iirc last time I looked your thread was on to the subject of in-car entertainment.



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DanielSL
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Re: Merits of the MK3 Golf
April 26, 2017 10:13AM
Flack? LOL. Yeah, true. Justified? Most of it.

The flack-tards are the ones on in-car entertainment. Not me. Not ever.

Stickers, Hell, even the SCCA commented the car has more stickers than paint on it now.

And, hey, I've made 3rd gear a few times now. LOL.
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dreamsofjvl
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Re: Merits of the MK3 Golf
April 26, 2017 05:01PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
The double wishbone morphodite shit is shit because its wimpy, has tiny weak ball joints, the weird goose neck cast iron POS thing that sweeps up fracture, the rear is made out a maybe max 3mm flat plate which is fine for UP and down motion but weak as taffy for any side loads---and in that its same as Fuck-us, or the new IRS Golf like the 2017 sitting here.

Easy to work on, not like the ball joints die in one rally. Do you have a picture of the fractured shock fork? Rear can be reinforced, or changed if someone desires. Relative to what we are doing (being slow), its a perfectly acceptable car compared to most other fwd options. Which you can't seem to comprehend. Whatever John.

Quote

Final Drive 4.9 - $584
http://www.teammfactory.com/catalog/partno/MF-TRS-02D49

Not particularly short for a motor that revs like they do..

Not going to bother going over the other stuff, I was showing what could be done with a d-series. If anyone was ever going to do a proper Civic rally car, they would run a b-series. Close ratio kit is $900 for a true close ratio box like you would like, same price for a 5.13 final drive. You now use facecrack, you can certainly type it into google for 5 seconds and find it if you want.

Quote

Yeah yeah, whatever...That's you..Your solution is obviously to spend spend spend...
It really isn't, I don't quite understand where you get this idea from. I run an open class car cheaper than most teams run their 2wd or production cars. Because I cheaped out, I fell from 4th to 7th overall (8th with time penalty) at Big White as I didn't have the proper tires. That hurt, and was a poor choice in spending. Lesson learned there. The contingency would have paid for the A034's, and those last many events, and I bought them anyways for Perce not even a month later.

Quote

Is it perfect? No, but no car is. And certainly, I believe anyways, more doable for the average joe than fabbing up new towers and 4-links in most rwd cars. And it'll be a lot of fun for the money.

I can't believe you thing adding towers is a lot of work. or 4 links..

I don't. I cut out and repaired the rusted out floor in a $1k Honda rally car to save it, even though no-one else could/would/did in the 5 years it sat. And then fabbed up proper FIA seat mount bars. Whoopdee doo! But for a vast majority of people, that isn't the case. And as I talked with a rally car builder the other day, doing two seat mounts properly, neatly, with good fitment, takes their shop 1.5 days.

Shit like that adds up. TIME is money. You have (or had) all the time in the world because you haven't done anything in 30 years John. Some of us have other things on the go. I'd love to spend hours in the shop fabricating, but I can't do that, I need to prioritize my time. And earning money wins every time, as there are people out there that are better than me at that stuff.

So whatever. The argument is merits of the Mk3 golf. Relative to it, the Civic, in my opinion, is superior, and is superior to most fwd cars. RWD cars like you suggest are (at least around these parts) basket cases, impossible to find, and beyond any of that require extensive work to not run like pieces of garbage and be slow.

I've owned a volvo, and I've driven Merkurs. They are pretty awful anywhere near stock.
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SeamusMcC
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Re: Merits of the MK3 Golf
May 02, 2017 01:16PM
Thanks everyone, there was a lot here to process. The short story of it all is I'm back to looking into running a RWD car and strongly considering volvo 240. I don't know much about volvo's but have been reading all the builds on the site and I'm starting to get that they are cheaper to build, maintain and when all hell breaks loose they will still limp across the finish. Any other RWD cars I should look at throw them at me.

Grant, the Accent was the car I used to bomb around with in my youth. Such a light car, cheap to work on, but I don't think it would hold up well after multiple rallies and it never seemed like the kind of car that would have a strong aftermarket community but I don't know enough to be certain of any of that. Also, they crumple on impact like a paper ball.
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Re: Merits of the MK3 Golf
May 10, 2017 02:52PM
http://www.mcracingsa.com







"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?"
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hoche
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Re: Merits of the MK3 Golf
May 14, 2017 03:57PM
Um...yay, bodykits?



Self-righteous douche canoe
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Merits of the MK3 Golf
May 14, 2017 09:27PM
Quote
hoche
Um...yay, bodykits?

vital!



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Re: Merits of the MK3 Golf
May 15, 2017 12:46PM
Quote
hoche
Um...yay, bodykits?

Specifically for DanielSL.



"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?"
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