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Penalties much?

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Not Trolling
Keith Morison
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Penalties much?
June 25, 2017 12:55AM
There are some who might argue that rally should be won on the stages and not lost by timing penalties... as a co-driver I don't see it that way.
But I struggle to understand this:
http://nasarallysport.com/results/2017-Central-UP-Rally-penalties.htm

Only ONE team made it through the event without penalties, and of the rest only one team didn't amass MINUTES of penalties.

http://nasarallysport.com/results/2017-Central-UP-Rally-penalties.htm

Looks like most of the teams should have DNF'd by being max early. (unless that is a scoring glitch)
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Re: Penalties much?
June 25, 2017 11:56AM
Reports are that nasa has a funky timing card that confuses the infallible co-drivers.....



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Re: Penalties much?
June 25, 2017 02:46PM
FIA timing card?
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Re: Penalties much?
June 25, 2017 02:50PM
Quote
Robert Culbertson
FIA timing card?

How could that confuse anybody?



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Keith Morison
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Re: Penalties much?
June 25, 2017 03:05PM
Quote
Robert Culbertson
FIA timing card?
maybe a 'modified FIA' timing card, since it is the modified FIA timing system being used.
With some reflection, I could ALMOST see many of the penalties coming from people adding transit to finish time rather than using the modified FIA system... but then there's someone who checked in 15 minutes early, which doesn't fit that scenario.
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Keith Morison
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Re: Penalties much?
June 25, 2017 03:15PM
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john vanlandingham
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Robert Culbertson
FIA timing card?

How could that confuse anybody?

Lack of familiarity and pretty much completely different presentation of information... (vertical rather than horizontal, and non orderly filling out of the boxes on the card...)

For years co-drivers have been asking for standardized time cards... and right down to the event organisers there is reluctance to change 'what they are doing.'
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Re: Penalties much?
June 26, 2017 08:05AM
The cause: The roads when were dry were .kml'd to be very fast. The bogey times were set low. The area received 4 days of straight rain, saturating the roads made of clay. Most transits were under a mile between stages. We had 15 minutes to transit. So even though most blew bogey, they could easily check in "on time." Also, the bogey times were in the route book, not the time card. And with short transits, most never looked in the route book. Time card attached. Oh. Did I mention it was wet?



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Re: Penalties much?
June 26, 2017 12:16PM
Quote
Not Trolling
For years co-drivers have been asking for standardized time cards... and right down to the event organisers there is reluctance to change 'what they are doing.'

Actually, only some codrivers have asked for standardized time cards. They tend to be either the dogmatic "This Is The Only Way Of Doing Things" types, or rookies/regional guys who've only ever seen one time card. The codrivers who travel around mostly just seem to think that time cards should be in one of any of about three or four general formats and there should be sample time cards in the supps as well as a declaration of the timing system.



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Keith Morison
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Re: Penalties much?
June 26, 2017 12:44PM
Quote
hoche
Actually, only some codrivers have asked for standardized time cards. They tend to be either the dogmatic "This Is The Only Way Of Doing Things" types, or rookies/regional guys who've only ever seen one time card.
Ok, I suppose I should have qualified my statement with, 'from what I've seen.'
My experience is quite different from yours as the co-drivers I've heard asking for commonality are the ones who are regularly travelling a lot and using multiple systems. I should also be clear that its much more of a 'wouldn't it be nice' than a 'this needs to be done.'
That said, the request was made formally to the CARS board at one point in time, and it came with support from the 'pointy end.'

Quote
hoche
The codrivers who travel around mostly just seem to think that time cards should be in one of any of about three or four general formats and there should be sample time cards in the supps as well as a declaration of the timing system.
Funny thing is that the timing rules are already in the sanctioning body regulations... why would you repeat them in the supps? I'd agree if an event was using a system that was 'non-standard' for the sanctioning body.
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Re: Penalties much?
June 26, 2017 12:59PM
Quote
Dante
Also, the bogey times were in the route book, not the time card. And with short transits, most never looked in the route book. Time card attached.
Can you send a pic of the reverse side with the timing rules?
NASA's GCRs say the 'modified FIA' system is used, which means the time card is giving incomplete directions on the front. By the times on the card, you'd have picked up 3 minutes of earliness in the two stages you finished.
(The card IS giving you the 'long time' for the stage as well as the transit time, albeit not very clearly, but it neglects to tell you that if you exceed the long time, that you drop the seconds and use your finish time. Unless there was a change by the organizers to a different system)
Here is the time card we used at RMR, and would look familar to anyone running BigWhite as well. The design was actually done with some collaboration with Nath Richard and RallyAmerica in an effort to standardize. And, Canadian National, so two languages. Obvously very familair to anyone local (we use the same design in our regionals, but I could see where it would be a bit confusing to someone who hasn't seen or used them before.
Then again, 'follow the arrows' usually helps people get through it.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2017 02:43PM by Not Trolling.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Penalties much?
June 26, 2017 02:28PM
Quote
Not Trolling
Quote
Dante
Also, the bogey times were in the route book, not the time card. And with short transits, most never looked in the route book. Time card attached.
Can you send a pic of the reverse side with the timing rules?
NASA's GCRs say the 'modified FIA' system is used, which means the time card is giving incomplete directions on the front. By the times on the card, you'd have picked up 3 minutes of earliness in the two stages you finished.
(The card IS giving you the 'long time' for the stage as well as the transit time, albeit not very clearly, but it neglects to tell you that if you exceed the long time, that you drop the seconds and use your finish time. Unless there was a change by the organizers to a different system)
Here is the time card we used at RMR, and would look familar to anyone running BigWhite as well. The design was actually done with some collaboration with Nath Richard and RallyAmerica in an effort to standardize. And, Canadian National, so two languages. Obvously very familair to anyone local (we use the same design in our regionals, but I could see where it would be a bit confusing to someone who hasn't seen or used them before.
Then again, 'follow the arrows' usually helps people get through it.

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John Vanlandingham
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Keith Morison
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Re: Penalties much?
June 26, 2017 02:43PM
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Penalties much?
June 26, 2017 02:52PM
Quote
hoche
Quote
Not Trolling
For years co-drivers have been asking for standardized time cards... and right down to the event organisers there is reluctance to change 'what they are doing.'

Actually, only some codrivers have asked for standardized time cards. They tend to be either the dogmatic "This Is The Only Way Of Doing Things" types, or rookies/regional guys who've only ever seen one time card. The codrivers who travel around mostly just seem to think that time cards should be in one of any of about three or four general formats and there should be sample time cards in the supps as well as a declaration of the timing system.

Example cards are pretty readily available. Any Co-driver worth their salt should be reading the rules that describe the timing, or there's books out there with comparisons of different timecards...
Or at least ask questions before the event.

Having transit times and bogey times on the timecard is convenient but would only serve to supersede what was written in the route book.

Granted this is a new event and seemed to have a few new teams so there was a lot of learning going on, for all parties involved.
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hoche
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Re: Penalties much?
June 26, 2017 03:56PM
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Not Trolling
Ok, I suppose I should have qualified my statement with, 'from what I've seen.'
smiling smiley

Quote
Not Trolling
Funny thing is that the timing rules are already in the sanctioning body regulations... why would you repeat them in the supps? I'd agree if an event was using a system that was 'non-standard' for the sanctioning body.

CARS, ARA, and R-A all describe a single timing method in their rules. CARS and ARA both describe Modified FIA (in a fairly confusing manner - see CARS 15.5.4. ARA's wording is virtually identical, unsurprisingly enough), and both say that "no other timing system is permitted". R-A describes a different method (fixed transits times starting from stage-completion time), but at least they acknowledge that some variation may occur and that event regulations must detail event procedures. NRS is the only body that describes multiple different timing systems - three of them. So, yeah, if you're running under one of the first three sanctioning bodies and you're sticking to their standard timing system, there's no need to put it in the supps. If you're not using the official one, you'd have to put it in the supps anyway as an exception - and you'd have to describe in detail how the method you're planning on using works. And if you're an NRS event, you should declare it every time, but you can just refer to the relevant section of the regs for a detailed description.



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hoche
Michel Hoche-Mong
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Re: Penalties much?
June 26, 2017 04:07PM
Curiously, the initial supps listed back in March don't say what the timing system would be, and although it has an appendix as a placeholder for sample time cards, the page is blank.

The latest supps still don't say what the timing system is, and the time card appendix got taken out.

If they were using Modified FIA, that time card was entirely the wrong thing to use - or at least it seriously needed to have the instructions rewritten. I certainly would have been confused and would have assumed that the timecard instructions superceded anything else, especially since there was nothing in the supps.

Growing pains. I hope no one but Keith is seriously worked up about this and I assume it'll get corrected in future runnings.



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