WTF NEFR!!
Posted by MattP
Not Trolling Keith Morison Godlike Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 09/15/2015 Age: Ancient Posts: 340 |
I really gotta learn to let trolls be trolls without taking the bait. First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19) Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5) WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4) Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11) Last Updated, May30, 2022 |
I don't think that is the only valid question at all. The rules for crew requirements are quite clear:
Still some shady business I disagree with. I'm trying to find the comment about Durant getting points, but Facebook is terrible for digging through. My "for the good of the sport" comment was made in regards to someone else saying that was why the decision was made.
That was the general response from competitors that were there, like Seehorn.
Pretty poor form on Dorman's part as the marketing director for VSC to have said this if inaccurate. He brought the shitshow on himself. But beyond all of this, if the Stewards/ARA make a decision, there is no excusable reason why that decision and the reasoning behind it should not be posted very quickly. This was a pretty big deal, and broke a lot of "rally norms" whether "within the rules" or not (highly questionable as the rules are quite clear). Its one thing for bending of the rules or breaking of them to happen with no one knowing. Its another for the organization to just wave their hands and say "yea, we'll let er buck". Edit- I realize now Keith already highlighted the rule I did. I thought he had originally highlighted the 6.2.whatever rules. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2017 12:05AM by dreamsofjvl. |
alosix Jason Powers Mega Moderator Location: Lyons, CO Join Date: 08/02/2011 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 326 Rally Car: 02 WRX, still to quiet, but it finished a rally |
|
Not Trolling Keith Morison Godlike Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 09/15/2015 Age: Ancient Posts: 340 |
https://www.americanrallyassociation.org/single-post/2017/07/27/New-England-Forest-Rally-inquires-requests-and-the-ARA-rules
First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19) Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5) WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4) Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11) Last Updated, May30, 2022 Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2017 04:44PM by Not Trolling. |
alosix Jason Powers Mega Moderator Location: Lyons, CO Join Date: 08/02/2011 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 326 Rally Car: 02 WRX, still to quiet, but it finished a rally |
|
DexterVW David Baker Mod Moderator Location: Rhode my Island Join Date: 11/20/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 290 Rally Car: 95 GTI TDI |
|
alosix Jason Powers Mega Moderator Location: Lyons, CO Join Date: 08/02/2011 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 326 Rally Car: 02 WRX, still to quiet, but it finished a rally |
What we can't discuss a we bit of drama that happened over a relatively event free rally.
Not all that different than normal people discussion sports or something  ..
But yeah it seems even a few well funded privateers can't catch those 2 regularly.
|
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Mod Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Not committed ARA's rulebook to memory but in my extreeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaamly limited experience I have not see a rulebook without the "Unsportsmanlike conduct" clause.. And while sure, ever since Subaru bought the SCCA series from that unethical slime ball so horribly misnamed, rules have been made up on the spot, applied randomly, appeals overturned on shameless bullshit grounds (the protest against Lovell driving recklessly in the service area cuasing the original Dave Clark to have to dive for safety overturned by saying "speed in service area was 5mph, but since the exact speed could not be determined, protest denied" with no comments on the danger) we've seen it all again and again and again, oddly always involving SRTUSA and always--almost--in their favor.. But even if theguys forgot to have a penalty exactly specifying the punishemnt for cheating and having a car 50lbs lighter---or 5 lbs lighter---it is still cheating and cheating is UN-sportsmanlike conduct. And there is where it could have and should have been handled. The substituting co-driver..sure....this is supposed to be for fun..But it violates every rule book in the world and violates the idea of what a rally is... But let them drive, just no points for anybody including the car.. That's the problem with the posing and pretending that this is supposed to be some "Professional" team or organisation....You want professional, you get strict rules.. You want happy-go-lucky--which most people I have encountered prefer, fine, have a meeting, ask the crews and have direct participatory democracy---and have some fun.. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
alosix Jason Powers Mega Moderator Location: Lyons, CO Join Date: 08/02/2011 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 326 Rally Car: 02 WRX, still to quiet, but it finished a rally |
You have a point there.. I'd imagine I'd have been un-scored even in our first (and only at this point) rally if we'd have managed to fail the restrictor test (was checked) or weight (wasn't checked).
But at this point its watch the 2 subarus battle for 1st and 2nd in open, then watch everyone else in ARA. I'm still waiting to see what happens with RA without the 'national' guys, hoping a few events swap to nasa as that was a good experience to run so far.
|
Not Trolling Keith Morison Godlike Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 09/15/2015 Age: Ancient Posts: 340 |
What isn't told in the release above, is that the reason Higgin's car was 50lb light, is that it was missing one of the rear suspension corners. As I understand it... no strut, knuckle, no brakes, no wheel... likely at least 50lb left in the woods. Saw a pic of the car exiting the stage. it was just a gaping hole on that corner. I'd have trouble calling that either 'cheating' or 'unsportsmanlike' because of a lack of intent. (I seriously doubt they intentionally shed that weight. Minimum weight speaks to car eligibility. Under weight? Ineligible. Fairly straight forward, and no additional rules needed. But exclusion would need a hearing with the stewards, allowing the team to present evidence. I'd expect most stewards at this level of the sport would not exclude a team in this circumstance, where the performance loss is greater than what is gained by the weight loss. ARA website shows co-driver points for those two positions 'under review by the ARA board,' so that clearly isn't fully resolved. First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19) Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5) WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4) Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11) Last Updated, May30, 2022 Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2017 05:26PM by Not Trolling. |
|
MattP Matt Pullen Ultra Moderator Location: Calgary Join Date: 10/22/2013 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 282 Rally Car: 2002 Ford StRanger |
|
Not Trolling Keith Morison Godlike Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 09/15/2015 Age: Ancient Posts: 340 |
Well, they didn't DNF as they continued to the finish, doing two stages on 3 wheels. I was talking about exclusion, which is different than DNFing. To exclude, you need to allow the team to present evidence, which if it were me would have been: - car was eligible at the beginning of the event - weight loss was un-intentional during the event - no opportunity to safely bring the weight back-up to the minimums - demonstrable reduction in vehicle performance because of the damage, meaning no advantage was gained. It is worth noting they were allowed to continue on 3 wheels, which wouldn't happen in Canada. (15.14 DNF... Competitors who have lost a wheel shall not compete further in the rally. In fact, if someone had driven back to service on 3 wheels at Rocky this year, it would likely have killed the sport in BC. First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19) Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5) WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4) Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11) Last Updated, May30, 2022 |
Rolling Blunder Ryan Bouffioux Mod Moderator Location: Dry Shitties, WA Join Date: 05/17/2017 Age: Settling Down Posts: 15 Rally Car: Stuporu Turdocharged Grocery-getter |
I think the smart thing to do would be to specify "change of crew" rather than "driver". If one were to analyze this like some D&D "Rules as Written" shit, it would seem that the only thing not allowed is to change the co-driver. Sure, it's a semantic argument, but if you're trying to be a premier, professional organization, you really should minimize your reliance on semantic arguments/the broad whims of event officials. Or just arbitrate things willy-nilly and give the other participants the finger, cuz where else are they gonna go? |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Mod Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
And you say I write a lot..fuuuuuuuuck. Interpreting rules is simple.. Writing good rules is hard. Rules on weight usually read--min weight 1230kg.. elsewhere there will be a rule on checking weights.. Rules for event usually has words that there may be surprise weight checks and "if the vehicle is underweight at any time during the event its curtains--out, Du Nuff...excluded.. I have read those kind of rules in supps and books maybe 5000 times.. Nowhere did I see a line or words to the effect "car must weigh minimum 1250kg at all times during the event...unless driver has cleaned off the whole corner thru battle damage at which time the stewards can hem and haw and mumble about how they will explain not excluding the car for being underweight at a weight check" Simple principles-- Min weight not hard to suss. Underweight...unconditional.. easy..Out.. Maybe somebody needs to revise the rule so the NEXT time the people that bought and paid for the whole series won't be in an indefensible and embarrassing situation.. Again.. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
Rally Anarchy © 2014 Corvus Digital –
Part of the AutoShrine Network –
Problems? Send an email to the Webmaster