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WTF NEFR!!

Posted by MattP 
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Keith Morison
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Re: WTF NEFR!!
July 26, 2017 08:31PM
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john vanlandingham
Sure is a long wiinded way of saying you're just repeating shit on the intra-webs that you REALLY don't know a fucking thing about..
Thanks for making it abundantly clear..

I really gotta learn to let trolls be trolls without taking the bait.
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dreamsofjvl
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Re: WTF NEFR!!
July 26, 2017 11:38PM
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Not Trolling
I'd be curious, and somewhat ironic some might say, in who said there would be points going to Durant as well as when and where it was said. I'm guessing this is the internet doing what it does best.

I think the only valid question is does the second place co-driver take first place points (and so-on) because the first place team didn't score. (I'd say no)

I don't think that is the only valid question at all. The rules for crew requirements are quite clear:

Quote
2.1.4 Change of Crew During a national rally, no change of crew and/or vehicle as listed on the official entry form for the event is permitted and, further, the crew member listed on the entry form as driver shall operate the vehicle at all times while on special stages. Switching of duties during stages shall result in exclusion from the event, and the entry shall be recorded on the results as a DNF. Switching of duties during transit sections is permitted. Switching may also be permitted due to illness and if approved by the Senior Steward or the ARA Competition Director. In these instances, the interchange of duties will only be permitted if the co-driver has a lower speed factor than the driver.

Still some shady business I disagree with. I'm trying to find the comment about Durant getting points, but Facebook is terrible for digging through. My "for the good of the sport" comment was made in regards to someone else saying that was why the decision was made.

Quote
Jeff Carl In the live feed of the podium I believe. Travis thanked ara and fellow competitors they had a meeting and discussed it and conpetitiors and ara agreed to let greg step in to finish the event due to robbies injury

That was the general response from competitors that were there, like Seehorn.

Quote
Grzegorz Dorman Team designates who gets points, Robbie will

Pretty poor form on Dorman's part as the marketing director for VSC to have said this if inaccurate. He brought the shitshow on himself.

But beyond all of this, if the Stewards/ARA make a decision, there is no excusable reason why that decision and the reasoning behind it should not be posted very quickly. This was a pretty big deal, and broke a lot of "rally norms" whether "within the rules" or not (highly questionable as the rules are quite clear).

Its one thing for bending of the rules or breaking of them to happen with no one knowing. Its another for the organization to just wave their hands and say "yea, we'll let er buck".

Edit-
I realize now Keith already highlighted the rule I did. I thought he had originally highlighted the 6.2.whatever rules.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2017 12:05AM by dreamsofjvl.
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alosix
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Re: WTF NEFR!!
August 03, 2017 03:40PM
I need to go find a link, but I swore during one of the videos of NEFR that they found Higgin's car to be 50lbs underweight. But then found the ARA rules don't provide a penalty for it or something so nothing happened.



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Keith Morison
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Re: WTF NEFR!!
August 03, 2017 04:18PM
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alosix
I need to go find a link, but I swore during one of the videos of NEFR that they found Higgin's car to be 50lbs underweight. But then found the ARA rules don't provide a penalty for it or something so nothing happened.
https://www.americanrallyassociation.org/single-post/2017/07/27/New-England-Forest-Rally-inquires-requests-and-the-ARA-rules

Quote
ARA Release
During the 2017 New England Forest Rally on July 21 and 22 there were a number of abnormal rule situations and organizer requests that I want to clarify. ARA has always tried to live up to the commitments of clarity and transparency. While I would have preferred to publish this information during the event there was not enough time to do so.

I want to start with the request by Travis Pastrana on Friday July 21 to change co-drivers. The co-driver Pastrana started the event with, Robbie Durant, was injured during the Friday stages and could not safely continue. Due to this complication Pastrana and the team decided to make a formal request to the ARA stewards for a replacement.

The stewards reviewed the request and the 2017 ARA rules to determine how to proceed. The request was granted per rule 6.2.3 (l) of the General Competition Rules:

6.2.3 Authority and Duties of the Stewards
The Steward(s) of the Event shall be responsible solely to ARA for enforcing compliance with the regulations governing the event.
The Steward(s) shall settle any claim which might arise during an event, under reserve of the right of appeal.
When ARA has appointed more than one Steward, the Stewards shall act as a committee and the Steward appointed as the Senior Steward shall act as chairman of that committee. The Senior Steward is, in particular, responsible for assigning stewarding duties, planning and holding meetings and for ensuring that the event report is prepared and submitted on time. When only one Steward has been appointed, that Steward shall prepare and submit the event report on time.
When more than one Steward is appointed, one of the Stewards will be designated as the Safety Steward.
The Stewards of the Event have power in accordance with these GCRs to:
(l) Authorize the change of driver or competition vehicle;

While this rule may be interpreted differently by some it can and was interpreted by the NEFR stewards that they could grant the request by Pastrana. The request was placed on the NEFR page of the ARA website and the official event notice board Friday evening after the stewards review.

The next item I want to address, again for complete clarity, was at the end of the event. During impound car number 75 of David Higgins was found to be approximately 50 pounds under weight. According to bulletin #1 the car must weigh a minimum of 3200 pounds.

Upon review of the 2017 ARA Technical Rules and Bulletin #1 it was discovered that there is no penalty for breach of these rules. Under the ARA rules the Stewards do not have the authority to create new rules or penalties, only to enforce the existing rules. Therefore, no penalty was assessed. Before the Muscatell Ojibwe Forests Rally in August we will issue a new Bulletin to address this issue.

Finally, I have had a number of questions on how the points will be distributed for Pastrana, Durant and Dorman. As this situation has not happened before we addressed it with a revised version of the 2017 ARA Points Guidelines and created a new bulletin. According to this bulletin Pastrana will receive 22 points, Durant 1 and Dorman 21.

Erick Nelson
ARA Competition Director



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2017 04:44PM by Not Trolling.
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alosix
Jason Powers
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Re: WTF NEFR!!
August 03, 2017 04:33PM
Yup, that's it. Seems they still have a few bugs to work out in the rulebook.



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Re: WTF NEFR!!
August 04, 2017 07:53AM
What a lot of internetting over the quest for a piece of artistic polymer in a class i'm guessing none of you are competing in...
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alosix
Jason Powers
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Re: WTF NEFR!!
August 04, 2017 11:38AM
What we can't discuss a we bit of drama that happened over a relatively event free rally.

Not all that different than normal people discussion sports or something smiling smiley..


But yeah it seems even a few well funded privateers can't catch those 2 regularly.



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john vanlandingham
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Re: WTF NEFR!!
August 04, 2017 02:13PM
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alosix
Yup, that's it. Seems they still have a few bugs to work out in the rulebook.

Not committed ARA's rulebook to memory but in my extreeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaamly limited experience
I have not see a rulebook without the "Unsportsmanlike conduct" clause..

And while sure, ever since Subaru bought the SCCA series from that unethical slime ball so horribly misnamed, rules have been made up on the spot, applied randomly, appeals overturned on shameless bullshit grounds (the protest against Lovell driving recklessly in the service area cuasing the original Dave Clark to have to dive for safety overturned by saying "speed in service area was 5mph, but since the exact speed could not be determined, protest denied" with no comments on the danger) we've seen it all again and again and again, oddly always involving SRTUSA and always--almost--in their favor..

But even if theguys forgot to have a penalty exactly specifying the punishemnt for cheating and having a car 50lbs lighter---or 5 lbs lighter---it is still cheating and cheating is UN-sportsmanlike conduct.
And there is where it could have and should have been handled.

The substituting co-driver..sure....this is supposed to be for fun..But it violates every rule book in the world and violates the idea of what a rally is...

But let them drive, just no points for anybody including the car..

That's the problem with the posing and pretending that this is supposed to be some "Professional" team or organisation....You want professional, you get strict rules..

You want happy-go-lucky--which most people I have encountered prefer, fine, have a meeting, ask the crews and have direct participatory democracy---and have some fun..



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alosix
Jason Powers
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Re: WTF NEFR!!
August 04, 2017 02:26PM
You have a point there.. I'd imagine I'd have been un-scored even in our first (and only at this point) rally if we'd have managed to fail the restrictor test (was checked) or weight (wasn't checked).

But at this point its watch the 2 subarus battle for 1st and 2nd in open, then watch everyone else in ARA.

I'm still waiting to see what happens with RA without the 'national' guys, hoping a few events swap to nasa as that was a good experience to run so far.



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Keith Morison
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Re: WTF NEFR!!
August 04, 2017 02:50PM
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john vanlandingham
But even if theguys forgot to have a penalty exactly specifying the punishemnt for cheating and having a car 50lbs lighter---or 5 lbs lighter---it is still cheating and cheating is UN-sportsmanlike conduct.
And there is where it could have and should have been handled.

What isn't told in the release above, is that the reason Higgin's car was 50lb light, is that it was missing one of the rear suspension corners. As I understand it... no strut, knuckle, no brakes, no wheel... likely at least 50lb left in the woods. Saw a pic of the car exiting the stage. it was just a gaping hole on that corner.

I'd have trouble calling that either 'cheating' or 'unsportsmanlike' because of a lack of intent. (I seriously doubt they intentionally shed that weight.

Minimum weight speaks to car eligibility. Under weight? Ineligible. Fairly straight forward, and no additional rules needed. But exclusion would need a hearing with the stewards, allowing the team to present evidence. I'd expect most stewards at this level of the sport would not exclude a team in this circumstance, where the performance loss is greater than what is gained by the weight loss.


Quote
john vanlandingham
The substituting co-driver..sure....this is supposed to be for fun..But it violates every rule book in the world and violates the idea of what a rally is...

But let them drive, just no points for anybody including the car..
ARA website shows co-driver points for those two positions 'under review by the ARA board,' so that clearly isn't fully resolved.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2017 05:26PM by Not Trolling.
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dreamsofjvl
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Re: WTF NEFR!!
August 04, 2017 03:59PM
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where the performance loss is greater than what is gained by the weight loss.

Not dnf'ing is quite the performance gain if you ask me.
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MattP
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Re: WTF NEFR!!
August 04, 2017 05:22PM
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john vanlandingham
But even if theguys forgot to have a penalty exactly specifying the punishemnt for cheating and having a car 50lbs lighter---or 5 lbs lighter---it is still cheating and cheating is UN-sportsmanlike conduct.
And there is where it could have and should have been handled.

What isn't told in the release above, is that the reason Higgin's car was 50lb light, is that it was missing one of the rear suspension corners. As I understand it... no strut, knuckle, no brakes, no wheel... likely at least 50lb left in the woods. Saw a pic of the car exiting the stage. it was just a gaping hole on that corner.

I'd have trouble calling that either 'cheating' or 'unsportsmanlike' because of a lack of intent. (I seriously doubt they intentionally shed that weight.

Minimum weight speaks to car eligibility. Under weight? Ineligible. Fairly straight forward, and no additional rules needed. But exclusion would need a hearing with the stewards, allowing the team to present evidence. I'd expect most stewards at this level of the sport would not exclude a team in this circumstance, where the performance loss is greater than what is gained by the weight loss.


Quote
john vanlandingham
The substituting co-driver..sure....this is supposed to be for fun..But it violates every rule book in the world and violates the idea of what a rally is...

But let them drive, just no points for anybody including the car..
Quote

ARA website shows co-driver points for those two positions 'under review by the ARA board,' so that clearly isn't fully resolved.

The weigh in was after the end of the rally, and as was told to all us keyboard warriors the team didn't have enough time to put it all back on the car in the given time at the final service prior to the last stages being run.........



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Xr4Ti, it is rwd and was made in Germany.
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Keith Morison
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Re: WTF NEFR!!
August 04, 2017 05:48PM
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dreamsofjvl
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where the performance loss is greater than what is gained by the weight loss.
Not dnf'ing is quite the performance gain if you ask me.

Well, they didn't DNF as they continued to the finish, doing two stages on 3 wheels.
I was talking about exclusion, which is different than DNFing.

To exclude, you need to allow the team to present evidence, which if it were me would have been:
- car was eligible at the beginning of the event
- weight loss was un-intentional during the event
- no opportunity to safely bring the weight back-up to the minimums
- demonstrable reduction in vehicle performance because of the damage, meaning no advantage was gained.

It is worth noting they were allowed to continue on 3 wheels, which wouldn't happen in Canada. (15.14 DNF... Competitors who have lost a wheel shall not compete further in the rally. In fact, if someone had driven back to service on 3 wheels at Rocky this year, it would likely have killed the sport in BC.
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Re: WTF NEFR!!
August 07, 2017 02:50AM
Quote

"The Stewards of the Event have power in accordance with these GCRs to:
(l) Authorize the change of driver or competition vehicle;"

I think the smart thing to do would be to specify "change of crew" rather than "driver". If one were to analyze this like some D&D "Rules as Written" shit, it would seem that the only thing not allowed is to change the co-driver. Sure, it's a semantic argument, but if you're trying to be a premier, professional organization, you really should minimize your reliance on semantic arguments/the broad whims of event officials. Or just arbitrate things willy-nilly and give the other participants the finger, cuz where else are they gonna go?
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john vanlandingham
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Re: WTF NEFR!!
August 07, 2017 12:43PM
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Not Trolling
Quote
john vanlandingham
But even if theguys forgot to have a penalty exactly specifying the punishemnt for cheating and having a car 50lbs lighter---or 5 lbs lighter---it is still cheating and cheating is UN-sportsmanlike conduct.
And there is where it could have and should have been handled.

What isn't told in the release above, is that the reason Higgin's car was 50lb light, is that it was missing one of the rear suspension corners. As I understand it... no strut, knuckle, no brakes, no wheel... likely at least 50lb left in the woods. Saw a pic of the car exiting the stage. it was just a gaping hole on that corner.

I'd have trouble calling that either 'cheating' or 'unsportsmanlike' because of a lack of intent. (I seriously doubt they intentionally shed that weight.

Minimum weight speaks to car eligibility. Under weight? Ineligible. Fairly straight forward, and no additional rules needed. But exclusion would need a hearing with the stewards, allowing the team to present evidence. I'd expect most stewards at this level of the sport would not exclude a team in this circumstance, where the performance loss is greater than what is gained by the weight loss.


Quote
john vanlandingham
The substituting co-driver..sure....this is supposed to be for fun..But it violates every rule book in the world and violates the idea of what a rally is...

But let them drive, just no points for anybody including the car..
ARA website shows co-driver points for those two positions 'under review by the ARA board,' so that clearly isn't fully resolved.

And you say I write a lot..fuuuuuuuuck.

Interpreting rules is simple..
Writing good rules is hard.

Rules on weight usually read--min weight 1230kg..

elsewhere there will be a rule on checking weights..

Rules for event usually has words that there may be surprise weight checks and "if the vehicle is underweight at any time during the event its curtains--out, Du Nuff...excluded..

I have read those kind of rules in supps and books maybe 5000 times..

Nowhere did I see a line or words to the effect "car must weigh minimum 1250kg at all times during the event...unless driver has cleaned off the whole corner thru battle damage at which time the stewards can hem and haw and mumble about how they will explain not excluding the car for being underweight at a weight check"

Simple principles-- Min weight not hard to suss. Underweight...unconditional.. easy..Out..

Maybe somebody needs to revise the rule so the NEXT time the people that bought and paid for the whole series won't be in an indefensible and embarrassing situation..


Again..



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