The passion makes me angry... Stage notes for all?

I just deleted (on purpose) a 2 page response on how a rally without stage notes in the year 2007 is a "hard position for the sport" - otherwise known as a stupid idea. I did this because they just won't get it...

Thank you Anarchy for giving me an outlet to my passion - otherwise known as ANGER!

I wanted to say that Subaru Rally Team USA probably wouldn't be stopping by so there's no need to exclude them by not having stage notes for this club rally.

I think newbs should be able to run stage notes.
I'm not saying force it on everyone - just make them available for all.
More information is better then less information.
Teach drivers to start building confidence with co-drivers at their FIRST event.
If you want to go back to rally with just a route book - please - please get in the Delorean and go back to 1975. I'll still be here mulling over the future of the sport when you arrive in the alternate time line. :|

The bonus is - this is not 1 of 100 rallies.
This is not 1 of even 10 rallies.
This is 1 of SEVEN on the CRS calendar.
I can't even think of SEVEN newbies in CRS!
Even if I list MYSELF!

*pant

So, I was going to send off this high and mighty email, but I realized that Rally America thinks that newbs are going to kill themselves MORE by listing all the hairpins and tight corners then NOT listing them at all* - logic is clearly out the window.

*Go ahead and try to call BS on this. My girl compares the route book and stage notes at EVERY rally and some of the stuff NOT listed in the route book is FUCKING SCARY. I'm talking about stuff not listed after 5's and 6's - you know - the double caution kind.

- Kris

Follow up:
Would you do a rally without stage notes? Right seat ballast in place?
Do you have the keys to the time machine in your hand? Fluxing?
Are you in Europe? Do you need an adapter?

Kris,

First of all, Deloreans weren't around in 197...oh, I get your reference. Nevermind.

Really, I don't have an issue with n00b drivers with notes vs without notes. What I have an issue with is n00b co-drivers with notes. The problem is that rookie codrivers have a tendency to get lost. With notes it's really hard to get back on, but with a routebook it's pretty easy. When there's a caution coming up, you (as a driver) want to be warned of it, and it's a lot easier for a co-driver to detect such things when there're fewer instructions.

And yeah, it's slower to go by a routebook. Can't see over a crest? Slow down. Can't see around a turn? Slow down. The routebook places a lot more responsibility on you as a driver to drive what you see and no more.

I'm glad to hear that Christine compares routebook and notes at every rally. It's her job to.


Oh, and I recommend you make the trip up to WA to run DooWops. It's just about the most fun rally on the west coast, and there're no notes!

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Self-righteous douche canoe

A few personal observations......


As a new driver I found myself faster and less safe on the route book compared to the same stages using notes. With notes I was anticipating and translating lots of information to learn the roads and the notes. witht the route book I drove like a hooligan and tried to save the car in every late corner. Of course the incar with the route book invovled lot's of why the !!!! wasn't that corner in the route book.

I had a similar experience codriving for another driver with limited experience.

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Matt Smith

Racing in glorious black and red

My daily life is a Saab story (sold!)

It's a double edged sword... As a driver (not a newb, just new to performance rally), if I know what's coming up (notes) I can drive it as fast as I feel comfortable. If I don't know what's coming up I can drive it too, al-beit probably significatly slower. If driving with notes and a newb navigator you get comfortable with the notes and he makes a newb mistake it probably cost way more $$ than if you drive beyond your ability without notes.

See "MRW rebuild" thread in construction forum.

Are notes a good thing? Yes, probably, getting used to them and knowing how much to rely on them while doing so is tough!


Is a rally without notes a bad thing? Certainly not. It's a different thing.

-Martin.

Come on boys, I gotta say Martin just hit the problem without quite intending, he said "If I know wahts coming up....."
Well ja shore ya bbetch, if I know, the I can hold it nearly flat.

Problem is we very nearly never really know.

You guys who believe the notes and then believe the co-driver is calling them correctly and on time have a lot more confidence in your beliefs than I do.

Personally when I see the speeds of all but an extreme few cars I have to shake my head and wonder whjat the fuck people are going on about "going faster", if the were any slower they stop going forward.


What most folk clamouring for more notes and 1 pass, 2 pass etc need is just more skill reading road, more foot mashed down and held longer and better spec cars.
But above all practices on fast vehicles so they know what SPEED is.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I would MUCH rather see more doo wops style rallies, where (at least most of) the tough stuff has been marked by arrows and !! signs on the roadside, than more notes and recce. There is nothing fair about a rally that lets you go two weeks ahead of time to run recce, make notes, memorize incar video, etc.. it's a great way to maintain the homefield advantage, but lousy for the guy towing crosscountry to get there. That, and some of us have to work for a living.
Recce/notes let you run faster. Great. We already have restrictors on the cars to slow them down. So let's run recce to speed em back up again. And speeding the cars up again based on recce is wonderful, till conditions on the stage change from the time you did your recce to the time you run the stage in the rally. So instead of coming into the blind crest at 8/10ths, you come into it at 10/10ths and gee lookit all the marbles what heve been kicked up going into that corner. This improves our safety how exactly?
Running a rally without notes and recce places a premium on driver judgement.
Running a rally with notes and recce places a premium on the codriver not getting lost.
We're all safer running recce, but we gotta require HANS... there is a huge logical disconnect going on and it is generating unintended consequences. Anyone wanting to jump on me for that better show me the number of injuries/fatalities in US rally by year from say 1970 onward.
The reward of driving a stage faster on notes/recce than otherwise, is not worth the increased risk. Velocity ain't where it's at for me. If it is for you, go to Bonneville and be done with it. I just wanna go sideways on logging roads...on a level playing field.

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Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuck that !!!

I started rallying 25 years ago with fucking notes, not Jemba, real fucking notes that you get off your ass before the crows wake up and drive the stages hundred times and write yourself. Was it easy ? Hell no. Was it expensive ? You bet your ass it was, try doing it on a student's budget. Did it help me ? No doubt. No matter who you are how many rallies you have under your belt, no matter how good you think you are, if you are a codriver, you will occasionally screw up the notes, with time and experience only the frequency of the screw ups decrease but that's all.

I have been advocating notes and recce here since MobyDick was a minnow, NASA is on the ball, RA is trying to reinvent the wheel as usual.

We want safe rallyists, safe rallies clean organisations so we need to edumacate noob co-drivers and drivers on how to read and receive notes. Plain and simple.

Did I mention ? RA can kiss my Turkish ass.

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Cheers
M.Samli
Phoenix AZ
Gaylant VR4
EVO III GSR (Stolen)


Rallies are no place for traitors

Moose,

Thanks for the am words of wisdom and the first good laugh of the day!

B-

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Build the car, race the car, crash the car, fix the car..Repeat

Interesting.
Are we protecting others against stupidity? While we ourselves engage in an activity that most people in motorsports see as CRAZY?

This is a helmet law 'kind' of argument. Common sense for all - as Massachusetts puts it.

If you are stupid enough to blindly listen to 100% of the calls a co-driver makes on their (or YOUR) first outing - you are an idiot and your Darwin trip into the scenery has been done to teach you that.

I agree with not handing the WRX keys to a newb. There are too many PGT WRX STi's out there with brand new drivers / co-drivers. Go Darwin!
I disagree that any restriction should be placed on (BLIND) stage notes. Maybe you weren't ready for them on your first rally - but I had them - and I think that allowed us to get up to competitive fairly quickly.

It's not the flat out speed. It's the team. It's working with your co-driver to go as fast as you both can - and that may be 40MPH average through some tricky switch backs. It's the L3 into R4 in L4 that you linked perfectly because you knew what was coming up. Fostering an attitude that we need professional co-drivers - not 'your college buddy' who you can bring up to speed on the first transit. Going back to just a route book (for us) seems like a step backwards as "newbs".

I guess I just have to look at this as a 'different rally' like Martin said.
But not having notes at all (in my mind) draws 2 types of people (maybe 3):
1. Newbs - which - um - there aren't any...
2. The old guys clinging to a belief that stage notes are cheating and it's not REAL rally.
3. Let's go driving fast in the dirt and scare that college buddy.
I'm not saying this is wrong - just my opinion. :p

Oh - and John.
I would like recce. It's cool - I've done it.
But I don't NEED recce. I'm perfectly happy reading stage notes blind and keeping up with the pack. I need every advantage over the guys that have spent 10 years on the same roads. Please don't lump recce (NOT BLIND) with stage notes / jemba (BLIND). I guess I should have clarified that sooner.

Jesus. This is not a HANS thread...
heh

- Kris

I'm not against notes by themsleves, I'm against notes/recce. Them that have the time to go out and do recce have a huge advantage against them that don't--as long as conditions don't change on em and they go far far into the trees because of it, which is bad for all of us. I was trying to point to the doo wop method as an alternative because the "notes" are out on the road available for everyone. I guess this idea wouldn't work everywhere, hell at that one in NY I bet the locals would come out and reverse the signage. Point is, I'll run with a route book, I'll run with notes, but when some of the competitors can go preview and others can't, I call bullshit.

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Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

webkris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> you are an idiot and your Darwin
> trip into the scenery has been done to teach you
> that.
>
> I agree with not handing the WRX keys to a newb.
> There are too many PGT WRX STi's out there with
> brand new drivers / co-drivers. Go Darwin!

Damn dude. Thats pretty fucking harsh to say that you're OK with the death of rallyists due to their inexperience. I, for one, dont wish death on any rallyists. And if you didnt mean it that way, maybe you should have picked something other than Darwin's theory of natural selection to relate it to.

My thoughts on the subject are that notes/recce, if available, should only be available to the national guys. That would be something to separate the national guys from the regionals. If you want notes/recce so bloody bad, poney up the dough for a national entry+notes+recce. Cause you probably got enough for the couple hundo extra for the national level fees if you're able to take more time off work for recce. No notes/recce will help keep the regional costs down for the competitors, sharp end of the stick becomes a little duller. But of course that will never happen because of the reduced number of notes purchased, which the event organizers would not like considering the shoe strings called a budget they already have.

I, personally, will continue to use the route book and rub it in when I beat people with faster cars and/or notes.

Carl S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Damn dude. Thats pretty fucking harsh to say that
> you're OK with the death of rallyists due to their
> inexperience. I, for one, dont wish death on any
> rallyists. And if you didnt mean it that way,
> maybe you should have picked something other than
> Darwin's theory of natural selection to relate it
> to.

Rallyists == People. People, as I'm sure most of us can agree, tend to == choads with big heads. "Anything you can do, I can do better." The seven year old's spirit of competition. I'm sure Kris isn't wishing grisly death upon any person devoted to rally, but where funding outweighs common sense and personal responsibility, natural selection can certainly come into play. Not so much that those who have more money than brains are crippled and maimed, but that a friendlier natural selection might prevail wherein certain types bend their pretty cars up and walk away?

What is most important? That people get exposed to rally. Does this change eliminate the need for a co-driver, which would be a considerable change to the very fibre of the sport? If not, I think I would play it flexible and focus on the fact that Kris is posting more and more over here.

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Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

OMG Jesus no - man - I'm not sitting here hoping that will happen.
In fact I'm fucking scared that NASA is going to let it happen with their blind eye to 300HP cars with newbies in them.

BUT - A helmet law is there to protect a brian functioning so poorly that it can't make that decision on it's own.

If you are stupid enough to blindly follow a novice co-driver into the woods - then you probably already jumped off a bridge because someone told you to...

AND yes - in this country we have to have fucking laws making it a crime to jump off bridges...

Now I'll quote my home state moto:
"Live free or die."

- Kris

EDIT - add:
"I, personally, will continue to use the route book and rub it in when I beat people with faster cars and/or notes."
Cool - do it!
I get the same satisfaction when I beat G2 cars in ze'Neon




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2007 06:40PM by webkris.

I am old-school. I ran blind rallies for years, with whatever was handed out. and I survived. And, the codrivers actually had time look out the window and enjoy the hell ride or get scared, bored or whatever. Rallying was an adventure then and it is a slightly different adventure now.

I prefer not having to listen to anything, but the engine revs, gravel pounding the chassis and Pink Floyd. But, I am trying to get used to empowered codrivers, who feel some irrational need to yack at me non-stop. I blame Edstrom for empowering America's ballast.

But, if the RA big-show is gonna provide Jemba notes, then it is un-American to discriminate against anyone. The Canadians don't discriminate. They allow notes and recce for everyone, even foreigners and noobs.

Why not just get someone else's notes photocopied, if you need some extra sensory stimulation? I won't tell ;-).
Ted Mendham

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Ted Mendham
www.rensport.net

OK kids first off Drivers Crash cars not notes, not route books, not co-drivers, not 300 HP Subrats.

2nd - car control makes you faster not some other thing such as AWD, notes, co-drivers etc.

Time and time again new drivers in AWD cars go about the same speed as new drivers in Gp2 or P cars. The car you take to the woods hardly matters at this point of your driving, the dif in equipment does not matter till you start to drive fast and few new dirvers do unless they have exp with other things.

I am fairly sure the same holds true for new drivers with notes and new drivers with out notes, at this point they all are driving soooo slow it does not matter.

I did my first 10 rallys with out notes and got a lot faster every time out, by my first rally with notes I was already going faster then the other cars in my class even when they used notes and I did not. Notes have very little to do with how competive you are till you are driving really fast and very few drivers go really fast in the US in my opinion.

I have done 3 rallys with notes, I am hardly an expert but again I appear to do just as well with or with out them. I do not see them as that big an advantage. The only thing I notice is that I drive much cleaner lines going a lot less sideways on notes.

On my first rally with notes I drove slower than I did on the same event on the route book as I had to learn to do more things and could not just concentrate on going fast. Even then I still won the first day and was leading 2wd by some 7 min when we lost the Alt and DNF'ed lots of those boys (and girls) had been using notes for years.

Notes will not make you win or lose driving will.

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In the long run reality always wins.