trucks

ya my 1 ton 4 door 4x4 is curb weight dry 6200 little on the heavy side i guess i would just like to see a diesel rig with all the advancement in diesel the last 5 years i would think there would be some thin out there but diesel engines are traditionaly heavy so maybe not the best match
any chance on maybe having a truck only class or a full size truck class
sorry if this is a little off topic

mavrick211 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ya my 1 ton 4 door 4x4 is curb weight dry 6200
> little on the heavy side i guess i would just like
> to see a diesel rig with all the advancement in
> diesel the last 5 years i would think there would
> be some thin out there but diesel engines are
> traditionaly heavy so maybe not the best match
> any chance on maybe having a truck only class or a
> full size truck class
> sorry if this is a little off topic


I don't see why diesel engines can't be used in general. They do have a bit of a weight disadvantage and thus, generally speaking would have to put out more power in the same chassis as a gas engine.

I honestly don't see a truck class starting though.

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

Re: trucks
Posted by: john vanlandingham (71.212.49.---)
Date: January 11, 2007


Back in the 80s there was a somwhat well know Baja guy Holmes or something who did a number of events in a fullsized Ford. He always entered the "National" part since he had a big budget.
Everybody raved at how fast it was with the big 350 whatever V8.
I was rooming in next room in 87 for a week for Olypus.
We hung out at brekky and in the parking lot a bit.

he said he broke lots of stuff constantly.
For Olympus 87 his prize money (we used to have some prize money paid out a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time ago, at least here in the NW)
just about covered his bill "just for power steering hoses blown"

And if one did as we used to with the National and Divisional stage results and plugged in the stage results for each stage from top to bottom for all the cars divisional and "National", you'd see that his well financed and flashy truck, while spas-tac-ular, was being beat routinely by 6-7 local guys in ordinarry cars:
Mazda RX3's, RX7s, Toyotas, Datsun 510s, and he was less than 1 second per mile faster than the most low budget car out there, my own Saab 96.

...........

John,

Not all true. Bill Holmes was his name and he ran a F150 RWD short wheel base. He finished 5th or 6th overall at STPR that year; the only cars beating him were guys of the caliber of Buffum, Millen, Woodner, and so on. Hardly '6-7 local guys'! He did break a lot, but you fail to give credit to the idea that if he had put money into developing the truck and getting past the repeatedly broken items instead of just slapping on another questionable part, then he could have developed a reliable piece that was already fast. How fast it would be in todays crop of rally cars is another matter.

Regards,
Mark B.

My take on trucks in rally:

There have been a number of competitive ones in the past:
- Bill Holmes' RWD F150
- Ken Stewart's S10 Blazer, especially the supercharged one
- The CJ5 and CJ7 of Guy Light and Mike Purzyki

The trucks could all run competively with well prepared RWD cars in the 80's. This is documented if you want to go back through the results sheets. So, I would put them up there as POTENTIALLY competitive with Volvo's, Merkur's, Opel's, Datsun 510's, the Omni's of the day, etc, and run consistent top 10 in the National events IN THAT TIME ERA.

In today's field of AWD turbo cars, drop 10 places for all the above-mentioned vehicles in the hands of most of us average, mortal rally drivers.

The level of truck prep that these above-mentioned guys did for this level of performance was pretty high; so don't think you are going to just take any thing and slap a few parts on it and make it work well. It'll take at least the level of investment and care required to make any of the cars mentioned above to be top cars, if not more.

A few of us out here in the SE have come to beleive that a good RWD PU truck is a good, cheap way to go rallying. The one Mighty Max that has passed from Greg Healy to Anders Green and now Mike Hall is a classic; it is simple and rugged, it's been wrecked 3 times and was ready to go with a little time on the frame machine and some new sheet metal. The 2.6L motor is very torquey and can be replaced with the Conquest/Starion turbo engine as a direct swap. But, a lot more torque is a waste as you can't keep the wheels on the ground. Hence one of the issues you wil face with a P/U in rally; it'll be the most limited traction vehcile out there.

You won't set fast stage times with a truck without a lot of prep and parts and investment. So forget it if you have the urge to be top dog a car is a better choice. But, thye can be FUN TO DRIVE, DURABLE, AND VERY CHEAP TO FIX AND MAINTAIN. So, IMHO, they do have a place in rallying.

Regards,
Mark B.

I wonder how well the 4WD bits would hold together on your typical rig.

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

Let me add to what Mark said and just keep it to Bill Holmes who I got to know some in 87 rooming next to him for a week at Olympus 87.

His truck was Soooooper Well done. 350 sumpin Ford V8, way lowered compared to his Desert trucks. Lots of resources, LOTS of money spent.

And it averaged about 0.6 to 1.2 seconds a mile faster than my tired cast piston 1815cc, driving on used snow tires, 12 rallies under my belt V4.

It didn't work all that great.

BUT EVERYBODY RAVED ABOUT IT.

No truck has ever really done jack shit really.
The are just too poorly balanced, extremely poor grip.

IF you have ANY competitive blood in you, you gotta ask "Do I really want to pour in all the fixed costs into something which NEVER will be even half competitive, except against other rank amatures/duffers.?"

Honest guys forget trucks, they are built to haul a light load.

CARS are way more FUN cuase they work better.
Nothing saying its less fun just cause something works better.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Look mom, it's a bird, it's a plane, could it be the flying rally truck that won Group 5 last year?? Something tells me those who are talking smack about trucks have never actually rallied a truck! I invite you to sit right seat. -please bring your catheter!

I broke my back, but the truck did kick some a$$!! -three spots behind Travis!

...also, Bill almost "over all'd" Desert Storm this past weekend! -very close!

Trucks Rule!




Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2007 10:42PM by RallyTruck.

RallyTruck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Look mom, it's a bird, it's a plane, could it be
> the flying rally truck that won Group 5 last
> year?? Something tells me those who are talking
> smack about trucks have never actually rallied a
> truck! I invite you to sit right seat. -please
> bring your catheter!
>
> I broke my back, but the truck did kick some a$$!!
> -three spots behind Travis!
>
> ...also, Bill almost "over all'd" Desert Storm
> this past weekend! -very close!
>
> Trucks Rule!
>
>
>
>
He...He...;0...





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2007 04:56AM by Haztoys.

Whatever. That Truck is hardly the fucking junk that guys are talking about when they're talking about thrashing the old piece of shit that they found dead on a field.

It is however somewhat similar result as I detailed from so many years ago, only a little ahead of a very modest spec car (P Stock 87 Golf) driven very well by a crew with under 10 rallies (Moser and Moser).

What the results shows is: IF there are maybe only one person with a more or less current turbo 4wd car, then a super expensive purpose built desert truck, driven by a VERY EXPERIENCED guy who's been in the same truck type for 20 years or more, can be driven to a pretty reasonable overall result, if there's an extremely thin field behind---
Face it, if the Moser's were making top 5 overall results from their first stage ever in a mild spec VW ,and top 3 overall shortly thereafter, with the biggest mods being Soooper Bitchinâ„¢ JVAB suspension, then the fields are thin..


Oh a note, you and Haztoys "Dave" need to voluntarily
Finish your SIDEBAR PROFILE----There are NO NAMES, and here it is the one of ONLY FUCKIN THING WE REQUIRE is a NAME and a LOCATION.
That's because we who started this forum think anonymity, especially in threads like this, don't encourage reasonable dialog, it encourages silly shit like "oh yeah? Neener neeener, you don't know me!" sorta like the response above.

And no I haven't ever rallied a truck, TRUCKS DON'T EXCITE, or even INTEREST ME>
They are TOW and FREIGHT VEHICLES, NOTHING ABOUT THEM is at all INTERESTING.
Same with "sports cars.

So thanks, but..........

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Hi guys. I've been off the forum for a while.

John is absolutely correct about trucks being unsuitable for Stage Rally. There are many reasons real Rally Cars don't run Baja successfully and there are just as many reasons Trucks don't run Stage rallys successfully.

I think purpose built off-road race trucks are great. But, they need LOTS of room and distance to show what they can do. That's the primary reason they're no good for stage rally as we know it.

The photo that "RallyTruck" posted above is from some stadium show or a Score type of event with lanes 200 feet wide. No place to do things like that in most rallys. And by rally standards the same truck probably wouldn't do very good in the tight and twistys.

Rich Smith



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2007 10:27AM by Rich Smith.

Sorry about that JV .. Nice forum you all have got here..

Have a nice day

David

Hazardous Toys inc

Rich Smith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi guys. I've been off the forum for a while.
>
> John is absolutely correct about trucks being
> unsuitable for Stage Rally. There are many reasons
> real Rally Cars don't run Baja successfully and
> there are just as many reasons Trucks don't run
> Stage rallys successfully.
>
> I think purpose built off-road race trucks are
> great. But, they need LOTS of room and distance to
> show what they can do. That's the primary reason
> they're no good for stage rally as we know it.
>
> The photo that "RallyTruck" posted above is from
> some stadium show or a Score type of event with
> lanes 200 feet wide. No place to do things like
> that in most rallys. And by rally standards the
> same truck probably wouldn't do very good in the
> tight and twistys.
>
> Rich Smith
>
>
>
> Edited 2 times. Last edit at Mar 27, 2007 by Rich
> Smith.


Wow, you really don't know what you're talking about.

That pic is from RIM, where the Line-x guys were putting the hurt on all the super-u's and mitsus all weekend. And the lanes weren't 200 feet wide, rather about 10.

Being at Desert Storm this weekend, and seeing the Holmes truck in action in a stage rally (in addition to seeing it at rallycross events over the last 2 years where it did really well), I can attest to the fact that trucks can indeed haul ass, corner well, and finish well. This truck is setup to turn on a dime, and do so quickly.

Holmes' truck can maneuver better than most of the understeering pigs you see at rallies these days, and most importantly for us in the Southwest, it can survive the rough stuff. In stark contrast to most other parts of the country, our rallies typically have VERY rough sections that the PNW guys would see and pack it up for the day. Boulders the size of helmets, 2 foot-deep sand washes, 30 miles of waterbars, and jagged exposed rock are some of the fun things we deal with.

For in rallying down here in the CRS, it's not always a matter of precise handling, outright speed, rallying heritage, or weight, but rather SURVIVAL. Another successful truck is Mike Taylor's Ford Ranger - it has only DNF'ed once in ~4 years of competing, won many events, and a Production Championship or two as well. I think he's replaced the struts ONCE in that thing - it's unstoppable.

As a closing comment, more than half the field at Desert Storm DNF'ed on Saturday, most due to the terrain. Holmes was a minute :34 off the overall win.

Eli Gilbert





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2007 11:16AM by gilbrock.

Rich Smith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The photo that "RallyTruck" posted above is from
> some stadium show or a Score type of event with
> lanes 200 feet wide. No place to do things like
> that in most rallys. And by rally standards the
> same truck probably wouldn't do very good in the
> tight and twistys.

Actually Rich, I think that photo is from the truck competing in a west-coast stage rally event where they had a stadium stage. I recall seeing videos of it in action and doing a whole lot better than most of the cars out there too...

Eli,

A stadium stage with jumping trucks isn't "Stage Rallying". It's an event promotion and photo op.

I think you miss the point. 10 normal guys spending $ 8,000 each on a truck will get beat by 10 normal guys spending the same amount on Rally Cars when they run traditional Stage Rallys. The same would be true if they all spent $80,000. But, the oposite would probably be true in desert events where trucks can really shine.

Don't take anomalies as the norm.

Rich Smith

Well, I think that the other 12 or how ever many stages and dozens of stage miles prove it's a stage rally, one of the toughest in the country. jeez, who are you, Jens?

Let's see - Mike Taylor's truck is for sale for $4,500. I could buy it and run it a few seasons and I'll bet I'd have a better finishing record than a similarly budgeted rally car - esp in the southwest.