Best option for a starter car Part II

cc8balla Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John,
>
> Thanks for the input.

Geeeze last time I tried to gently suggest to a fellow in Alberta, Canada that a short, stock slow Suzuki was maybe was not a choice well suited to rallying on the fastest roads in all North America, you should have seen the response!


You are right, I have no
> money. From what I see rally is all about
> engineering and ingenuity, and knowing what to
> spend money on, and what not to.

Well for most of us, that's the big battle.
And the first choiceis the critical one, can't stress that enough, GOT To avoid that dead end thing, cause we have to hold onto the big investment of time and money that goes into the shell, cage and suspension.



My goal is to
> learn this, so by reading this forum, and just
> observing, I think I can.
>
> I think next thing on the list is to sit down with
> Matt (the guy that wants to build this with me)
> and figure out a tentative budget, and a tentative
> list of cars and their pros and cons, and go from
> there.
Been done to death, let me re-cap a bit for you.
Don't spend more than 200 to 700 for a RUST FREE!!! roller.

AND BETTER TO TOW A 100 BUCK WEST COAST CAR THAN SPEND 100 HOURS CHASING RUST.
>
> Sound good? Apologies to the OP if I hijacked this
> thread, I didn't intend to.

hERE THIS IS RALLY ANARCHY, ONLY THING YOU GOTTA APOLOGIZE FOR AROUND HERE IS FOR BEING TOO FUCKING STUFFY.
>
> -Jason
> Too close for missiles, I'm switching to guns.

And a good friend up in the woods of Minnesota said to me ":when i was drive a fwd Sentra SER I was all about trying hard and getting good results.....and having some fun. Now that I have a old RX7, as soon as I hit the first corner sideways I don't care what the results are cause its just tooo much FUN!!!""


I strongly suggest you thing about decent RWD platforms
Ford
Volvo
Toyota

More and more guys are understanding this is the best platform for normal guys having the most fun per dollar spent AND having limitless growth potential IN THE SAME SHELL.

Huge advantages to the budget builder in having separate gearbox and final drive and simple layout.
(Don't worry about "previous experience, that's for maintaining street cars, this is different.)

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

LOL, I aint used to a forum like this, where you can fuck around a bit in posting.

I aint looking to spend over $500 for a car to start with. If I wanted to spend over $1K, I'd buy a dd, so I can fuck around more with my dsm.

---

-Jason
Too close for missiles, I'm switching to guns.

cc8balla Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LOL, I aint used to a forum like this, where you
> can fuck around a bit in posting.
>
> I aint looking to spend over $500 for a car to
> start with. If I wanted to spend over $1K, I'd buy
> a dd, so I can fuck around more with my dsm.
>
> -Jason
> Too close for missiles, I'm switching to guns.


Yeah laid back is the way to be.. I hate being on a forum and wondering if I can say fuck... I'm 27 years old and don't live with my mother, so of course I can say fuck.

John has a lot of good points and he's pretty damn good and beating out the dreamer in most people (maybe not me). The basis of the JVL system is:

1) Keep it simple
2) Keep it cheap
3) Keep it common

Edit:/ fuck, forgot to add keep it fun, that's why you want to rally right?

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2007 12:59AM by hudson.

I'll add that you need to be a realist about yourself and your abilities:

- If you have to be the best and the fastest, stick with one of the known potent platforms like the Golf.

- If you are a good fabicator and experienced mechanic, then you open up to a lot of the platforms that can be upgraded extensively with some degree of fab work; this adds the Merkur and several others to the list.

- If you are not a mechnical genius but want a decent car out of the box that does well in orignial form and get you on the stages, then the list changes. The early 90's Nissan SER comes ready to go with a good package. Some cars like the Merkur are NOT a good choice IMO for someone who needs to stick with a plain stock package.

Please note that if you need to stick with the stock car configuration, you won't ever has as fast a CAR as others who can do mods, BUT also keep in mind that good driving in a solid basic car will beat mediocre driving in a hot car at any rally.

I am not sure where the Neon falls in this breakdown of cars; good engine to start with but what else? IMO, it's one of those cars that are good if you are sticking with a stock pacakge. I'll defer to the opinions of others on how well it can or cannot be upgraded.

BTW, as for build or buy, yes buy is faster, but I swear that it's about a 50/50 shot of getting soemthing good, or getting someone else's unsolved problems and worn out bits and pieces. Pick your poison.

And, I guess I'll have to apologize for not swearing here......

Regards!
Mark B.

The Ford Sierra was raced in Group N and Colin McLeery seemed to have a bit of fun and consistent results with a nearly stock Merkur. It can be done or if you want to, you can really make it cool.

And with 250 hp easily obtained with a few easy engine mods, easy swappability of the strong internals with okay ratios Mustang T5 they are still good.

Add in the JVAB suspension and Supra diff swap (when the beams are done) and it becomes a no brainer.

As I was telling someone at a rally party last night. There's only two cars that make sense to build. Subaru or Merkur.

---

Grant Hughes

starion887 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> - If you are a good fabicator and experienced
> mechanic, then you open up to a lot of the
> platforms that can be upgraded extensively with
> some degree of fab work; this adds the Merkur and
> several others to the list.

Mark, if a guy with a non-MicroSoftie, non Trustafarian sort of income wants to play with rally cars it is a given, it is a must that he become at least an "Adequate" fabricator, mechanic and welder.

When a guy has a crap budget like MOST guys and fersure this guy, then there is no other choice but also become in addition to the abaove, that he becomes very very good at swearing. Real double throw down, both barrells, eyes bulging , neck veins thobbing swearing.

And laughing too.

But Mark, the Xratty needs no more or less than other cars, indeed it needs less in some areas, and is easy and cheap to upgrade in some of the areas the it "would be nicer" to upgrade.
That's the reason I like them, Mark.
Stock more than enough motor/torque, stock OK clutch, stock OK brakes, stock
VERY GOOD STEEERING rack, stock pretty OK ratios in the box abd OK weight,
and this is the important thing Mark:
In these days of people reccomending newer cars (out of the price range but...) that weigh 2600 2700-2800 lbs with modern little asmatic motor making 128 bhp and
almost no torque and what torque there is up at higher revs and that combined with some MPG oriented TRANSAXLE that you're stuck with-----this scenario is what makes Xratties look so good.
>
> - If you are not a mechnical genius but want a
> decent car out of the box that does well in
> orignial form and get you on the stages, then the
> list changes. The early 90's Nissan SER comes
> ready to go with a good package. Some cars like
> the Merkur are NOT a good choice IMO for someone
> who needs to stick with a plain stock package.

Again, strongly disagree. As grant has pointed out Colin McCleeery resisted for YEARS any suggestions from me for any engine, turbo, or even gearing upgrades, did no stitch welding, and ran the car for about 9 years on the standard gearbox the car came with with ??????? miles to begin with.

ALL the stuff I suggest to the boys that you've seen I suggest because they're younger, cockier, theorectically more agressive/competitive guys WHO ARE ALSO EITHER BROKE, or at that point in their lives that they need the dough for things like familie stuff (houses/kids/clothes/food).
Colin, being a crusty ol bastar wait, a more "seasoned' gentleman like you and I, aw shit I am not a gentleman, and I ain't really that old!! He's a Grandpa now!!!!
I just got started on this family thing!!!!

Anyway, Colin can afford to NOT do everything and in fact it worked really well CAUSE HE'S more mature!!

WE CAN'T MAKE THAT PRESUMPTION with guys we don't know.

Therefore we can only RESPONSIBLY reccomend build techniques and procedures as GOOD AS WE KNOW HOW TO DO regardless of the CAR.
>
> Please note that if you need to stick with the
> stock car configuration, you won't ever has as
> fast a CAR as others who can do mods, BUT also
> keep in mind that good driving in a solid basic
> car will beat mediocre driving in a hot car at any
> rally.

Ain't suggesting folks START with a HOT car.
The stock, VERY easy to drive, TORQUEY 2300 turbo motors that come in the Xratties and the 240 Volvos are the PARAGONS of EASY----but have the potential to be very easily, and important for guys itching to do sumpin satisifyingly diddled to yield nice bit more bhp and especially TORQUE.
>
> I am not sure where the Neon falls in this
> breakdown of cars; good engine to start with but
> what else? IMO,
Really? I have seen a goodly number with rods sticking out the side of the block, and if I've seen a goodly number ---and I only casully glance at the engine rooms while walking by at the junk yards--- must be some proiblems...


it's one of those cars that are
> good if you are sticking with a stock pacakge.
> I'll defer to the opinions of others on how well
> it can or cannot be upgraded.

Well I drove a barrowed fancy schmantzy one for 3 days when my wife was here before she got thru all the BS with visas, and we drove all over th islands in Pugest Sound, mid week, low traffic and LOTS up very curvy roads on the coasts and lots of climbing up and down hills.
I thought the car sucked masssive big weenies.
NO TORQUE---APPALLING gearbox ratios----rubbery steering feel even with the groooviest tires I have ever driven on some BIG wide fawkin things.

I have driven Vauxhall Nova/Opel Corsas, Astras, Fiat Unos etc in much faster, much harder conditions, low level rental cars which were FAR better.

But importantly mark---THE CAR WILL HAVE TO REMAIN STOCK even if the guys owning it decide they WAT TO upgrade it---because there are no alternate parts.
>
> BTW, as for build or buy, yes buy is faster, but I
> swear that it's about a 50/50 shot of getting
> soemthing good, or getting someone else's unsolved
> problems and worn out bits and pieces. Pick your
> poison.

Ain't that the truth!
>
> And, I guess I'll have to apologize for not
> swearing here......

You can TRY and improve there Mark. Start small and work you way up, try calling be a "dirty bastard" then you could like add on modifiers liek "dirty Belgian bastard", and then add on more things both befor and after. "Filthy, rotten, stinking, festing, pusss filled etc are all pretty good and you can barrow some of those and use them for a while if you want.

And if anybody needs some help swearing Grant posted a while ago a list of Finnish swear words you can search for.
>
> Regards!
> Mark B.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I am a fabricator, so welding and fabbing parts aint a problem. It's been awhile since I've welded, but I know how.

I think weve decided on a MkII Golf. Just cause it's proven, fairly easy to find, and is a damn good platorm to mod off of. We want the 2.0L 16v motor, and not the 1.8 if at all possible. I am really super fucking pumped about this, and pretty damn serious as well. We'll see where we can take this.

---

-Jason
Too close for missiles, I'm switching to guns.

Firstly, I think we'll all agree that Jason has made a solid choice in the Golf. And with fab skills, he's in a great position to do well.

John, I won't try to answer every point; too much typing! I just want everyone to see that, IMO, there are different levels of car prep, and different car choices, that are suitable for folks with differing approaches to the sport and with differing mechanical skill levels.

The one thing that nags at me is recommdations of solutions that require going beyond basic car mechanics as the right car for everyone. John, a lot of your points are right about if you don't have big bucks, you need to learn some car skill to be able to maintain a rally car. But I think you know that is not the point I am making; the point is that once you get a platform that requires you to go past basic car repair and mechanics to make it reliable or fun, then it gets beyond basic mechanics. Welding stuff up and getting machined parts is a big step above just swapping out struts and other bolt-in parts.

So if you are not interested in going beyond the basic level, then you should start with a car that will be good stock and with basic bolt-on parts. IMO, this is a different set of cars than the cars that are good for a higher level of mods. If you start that way and want to move up, then selling IS a good option, ESPECIALLY IF YOU DID JUST BASIC STUFF TO IT, AND DON'T STAND TO LOOSE A LOT OF THE TIME AND $$ INVESTED IN BUILDING THE ULTRA-CAR.

And as for the stock Merkur, the stock gear ratios are 'maybe adequate' but hardly qualify as a 'good' gear set; they are as bad as the stock Opel trannies we ran for years and years. Hey Dad, did I do good with my starter 4-letter word????

Regards to all, and don't think I'm raggin on anyone, just expressing my take on things,
Mark B.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
> Been done to death, let me re-cap a bit for you.
> Don't spend more than 200 to 700 for a RUST
> FREE!!! roller.
>
> AND BETTER TO TOW A 100 BUCK WEST COAST CAR THAN
> SPEND 100 HOURS CHASING RUST.

You don't even have to do that, just look far enough north that it's too damned cold for salt to work.

The shell I just picked up from Winsconsin (it's actually a running car but most of the bits are being sold off) is cleaner than most west coast cars because they don't salt the roads up there, and there's no salty ocean mist either.

Plus it was only a 23 hour tow! Leave Friday after work, load up the car just before dawn (brrr), and back in time for dinner on Saturday.

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.