Helical VS Clutch Type Differentials?

Tried searching on here, surprisingly no results.

What's performs better?

Application:
-FWD (1992 Honda Civic)
-~130 BHP
-Offroad (gravel, snow, ice).
-No Tarmac

I've read many posts on Special Stage how people hate helical differentials for rally. From what I've read I'm pretty sure I need a clutch type differential, I just want to be sure.

Thanks,

Carthik

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Carthik S
1999 Honda Civic 2DR



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2012 03:23PM by Carthik.

Yes.

Find Billy Elliot Mann's build thread on specialstage. That's probably one of better Honda builds in recent years, though by no means the only or best.

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Grant Hughes

Quote
NoCoast
Yes.

Find Billy Elliot Mann's build thread on specialstage. That's probably one of better Honda builds in recent years, though by no means the only or best.

Yes for Helical or Clutch?

I'll read up on the thread.

Thanks,

Carthik

*EDIT*
Link to Elliot Mann's build thread for people who stumble upon this thread in the future:
http://www.specialstage.com/forums/showthread.php?40237-Honda-Civic-G2-Build

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Carthik S
1999 Honda Civic 2DR



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2012 03:25PM by Carthik.

clutch, helical is no bueno on gravel

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-Tom
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Quote
Tom B
clutch, helical is no bueno on gravel

Merci Merci!

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Carthik S
1999 Honda Civic 2DR

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Tom B
clutch, helical is no bueno on gravel

Helical works great on gravel as long as you're not driving hard, and never lose a CV joint.

Not all clutch diffs are created equal. Some can be driven on one axle, some cannot.

Quote
fliz

Quote
Tom B
clutch, helical is no bueno on gravel

Helical works great on gravel as long as you're not driving hard, and never lose a CV joint.

Not all clutch diffs are created equal. Some can be driven on one axle, some cannot.

Twirly gear type will transfer a % of the low grip wheel to the other side 9via jamming the twirly gears into the case.
Almost all come with little to no preload on the gears..

So depending upon the helix angle they can transfer a higher % from one end top the other.
The problem is when, either from low grip like snow/ice, or gravel or wet asphalt and agressive driving dynamically taking weight off the wheel---there is a large loss of grip, the diff will trnsfer G% of the power...Like on ice, 0 % grip x G= zero and inside allows differentiation aka spin..
One CAN preload the bellville springs and that helps some.
But the best 2wd driver I know in North America, Jon Nichols in Quebec, said "If all I had was a Quaiffe for a winter rally, I would load the trailer".

As for different types of plate, some of the most modern designs are intended for tarmac cars, they 'go open" on over-run, which means its rolling tires which turn in nicer---then they rapidly get tighten with the application of the big wellie. That's what all the ramps are doing..

But those can be shimmed up tighter. Then again I don't know how many here shim their diffs and set the break-away torque.

Why take chances?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I went with a clutch type since they perform better on loose surfaces. When I had a stage start at Sno*Drift this year on pure ice, uphill, I was so happy to have a clutch diff. I just stuck the outside tire off the road and climbed up the hill.

I saw guys in front of me who had helical's try to get up the hill and fail.

The only downside is finding a place to do the figure 8's for half an hour to break in the diff without getting the cops called on you. Or you can spring for an OS Giken model that doesn't require any break in, but is almost twice as much as something like a Kaaz.

You going with a B series motor or a sticking with a D?

semi-threadjack...

any opinions/thoughs on the differences between:

the 'traditional' bellville-sprung diff (kaaz etc.)


and

center coil-sprung diffs (cusco "type-rs", MFactory)


???

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

I have experience driving both quickly on real rally stages in the same car. I tossed the Helical out (it came with my nice gearbox basically free) and installed a clutch type as soon as I could.

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In the long run reality always wins.

On a 130hp honda honestly just get whats easiest to find. Most probably a helical out of a Type R. It will work just fine. I've driven my old RSX on a Quaife for a few years and never had a one tire fire. Its not the best option for the conditions but its still better than open diff. And the differences to a Kaaz are not all that much. Salisbury diffs will torque steer some more, but it will also help the car rotate better under power.

Quote
Aaron Luptak
semi-threadjack...

any opinions/thoughs on the differences between:

the 'traditional' bellville-sprung diff (kaaz etc.)


and

center coil-sprung diffs (cusco "type-rs", MFactory)


???

If I had my druthers, for longer life and much better reliability I'd choose something that looks like this..see the difference?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Thanks for all the replies. I will be sticking with the D16Z6 for now but I almost want to go B-Series just for the amount of support and options for differentials alone. I have very limited choice with the D16. I was excited at first because it seems everyone who runs a rally Golf praises the Kaaz units but they are now discontinued for D-Series application .

Aaron, I will be making another thread to bring up exactly what you mentioned, I don't like mixing topics, it gets confusing and off topic easily. John, it's always a challenge decrypting your posts .

Thanks again,

Carthik

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Carthik S
1999 Honda Civic 2DR

Quote
Carthik
Thanks for all the replies. I will be sticking with the D16Z6 for now but I almost want to go B-Series just for the amount of support and options for differentials alone. I have very limited choice with the D16. I was excited at first because it seems everyone who runs a rally Golf praises the Kaaz units but they are now discontinued for D-Series application .

Aaron, I will be making another thread to bring up exactly what you mentioned, I don't like mixing topics, it gets confusing and off topic easily. John, it's always a challenge decrypting your posts .

Thanks again,

Carthik

Well if I simply tell you then i get all this fucking whining from the whiners about being a whatever.
So seriously go along with it, it IS better if you follow along, it sharpens obsevation..

So whatddya see different tween the pretty piccies and what I posted?

I'll say what I warn about IS a problem with Kaaz, and that every time I hear of their non-existent customer service, the ancient design of the parts I'm hitting you over the head with and bad "months to deliver off the shelf parts" means I'd look elsewhere.

And what's your damn name. Dammit. Fix your siggie>
REAL NAME means real name.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
So whatddya see different tween the pretty piccies and what I posted?

I'll say what I warn about IS a problem with Kaaz, and that every time I hear of their non-existent customer service, the ancient design of the parts I'm hitting you over the head with and bad "months to deliver off the shelf parts" means I'd look elsewhere.

I see two differences:
1) lots of teeth on the plates, rather than 6-8 on the kaaz-like ones.
2) single solid bar for one of the pairs of pinion gears.

I'm guessing that #1 is what you're pointing out - more teeth = less load per tooth. I know folks have sheared off the teeth on kaaz plates before, even with non-existent non-turbo honda torque.

Unfortunately, the only clutch diff that I know is available for the D-series transmissions (mfactory) is a copy of the cusco/kaaz/etc - with 6-8 teeth on the discs.

Who makes the diff that you posted? edit: looks like it's a 'Gripper' diff.

I've only had to deal with Kaaz's customer service once - not great, not terrible either. It was about 2-3 weeks to get the part that I needed - considering that it was coming from Japan [I don't think KAAZ usa stocks anything], right after the tsunami, it wasn't bad. $$$ for a freakin' speedo gear though.

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2012 12:37PM by Aaron Luptak.