MaxAttack! cars - my thoughts on how to win it

There has been some discussion lately about the right car for MaxAttack! I think it deserves it's own thread. Of course we've all got opinions but as someone who has rallied and spent a bit more than I should have I feel that I can offer an objective, unemotional analysis what what type of car could be competitive and win the Stud Glory Cup!!!! i.e. The MaxAttack!Triple Crown Rally Series.

Let's start with some tried and true rally conventional wisdom on what's most important in a car.

chassis
tires
suspension-steering-brakes
diff
drivetrain
motor
driving shoes

This has been debated but many agree that this is a sensible model, although usually not followed in terms of a complete process. Except for driving shoes.

Let's talk about getting the most for our money...

Chassis
Pick any solid plentiful unibody. It should be cheap. The best choices here are the type of car that you can just go pick up for free. The worst choices are the ones that will hold you back onstage because you can't find body panels or spare shells and you are scared to go off. Keep overhang, wheelbase, and overall weight in mind here.

How to go wrong from the start and hurt your MaxAttack! chances?
Not solid, not plentiful and heavy. Ask yourself the questions "Can I total out this shell?, How long would it take me to get it back on the road simply because its a <make and model>? Can I keep a spare shell? Some shells take more prep than other shells but it's a one or two time cost.

Tires
Buy rally tires of the correct compound. Keep enough air in them.

How to go wrong form the start and hurt your MaxAttack! chances?
Not enough tread, not enough air, it's pretty simple. Also, a car that has brakes too huge to fit under a 15" wheel isn't doing you any favors here. 15" tires are much cheaper than 16" or 17". Be careful not to waste money. You can win this championship on slightly used 15" tires.

Suspension-Brakes-Steering
Not just springs and dampers here, ask yourself how your suspension will allow you to GET THE MOST out of your tires and your solid affordable shell. How is your suspension going to keep your tires' contact patches on the road? Is your suspension performing well and not breaking?

This is where a good shell with poor suspension travel or weak pickup points hurts your performance. This is also where almost all cars have made some modifications to the arm length, shock towers, control arm turrets or pickup ponts. Having a rallycar that necessitates some of this isn't bad. An inexpensive, winning MaxAttack! car should have some modification here...they don't design cars to win rallies afterall.

Good brakes will help you to make a late brake or left foot brake. This is where YOUR DRIVING really is affected. You won't win MaxAttack! without properly biased brakes. Also, they better be able to be abused in order to win

Steering needs to guarantee that you can get it right with the steering wheel. A winning MaxAttack! car needs to have accurate steering that won't break. It also needs to be quick...around 2.2 to 2.4 quick.

Overall this is the biggest area to look at for the car. This is really where some cars start to separate themselves from others in terms of quickness, reliability, and quality part availability. Big hubs and bearings, joints, long suspension arms, and other parts that keep your slightly used contact patches on the road are a vital part of any quick efficient rally car. You simply can't skimp here. And it's important to remember at this point that the chassis, suspension and tires are all working together. Any of these 3 variables will be a limiting factor. And since we are already using less than perfect tires you can't expect to win with lame suspension and chassis. What car are you thinking of? Can it meet these needs?

Differential
Damn good thing you only need one cause it's gotta be good. It doesn't have to be expensive, however. BUT, they sure can be and people have spent plenty on them in the past. Key words: Plate type, clutch type. Here is where some of the RWD platforms have a big advantage over some FWD platforms in terms of cost. RWD diffs are cheap for many diffent rear ends. You can often choose to run one of these.

What car are you thinking of? Can you get a plate type diff? How much will it cost?

Drivetrain
From the input shaft on the gearbox to the end of the stub on the axle it's gotta be strong enough to handle the torque from the motor. Do you need to spend a lot to make your drivetrain stong...not if you have chosen the right vehicle. The wrong vehicle quickly gets expensive here because you don't want to have to buy a gearbox from PPG or Saenz or Jericho if you can avoid it.

At this point we are asking the question "How do I avoid spending 4 or 5 grand or even more on a gearset or a transaxle?" You want to keep the needle in the power but it's important to keep things in perspective. Starting first with the final drive ratio helps. If you haven't got a ton of power go low, real low, like around 5 to 1. This will really deemphasize the gaps between 2nd and 3rd gear in many gearboxes.

But to win MaxAttack! I really think you would need a nice close ratio box, like a 2.4 to .9 or something within a tenth or so, maybe closer. How do you get one for less than $4000? This is where there are many cars that will not pass the test and they get very expensive. Again a RWD car has advantages here because you can select the gearbox and rear end sepparately and modifications are cheap. Is the car you are thinking of going to get you some nice ratios for not too much $$$. Gotta spend your money wisely to win the Glory Studman Cup on a regular guy's salary.

Engine
I think you could do it on 240 hp. This requires spending money. It's not going to be easy to win the Cup so this one is a necessary evil.

Don't forget, motors need to be strong.

Driving Shoes
They are not needed to win MaxAttack!

Three of these would do it:

http://cbradleymotorsport.co.uk/hire.htm

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

One of those English cars sure could be built to be a performer, that's true. But in order to run one of those you need to have a some spare body panels laying around.

fiasco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Three of these would do it:
>
>
>
> Andrew Steere, 1973
> Lyndeborough, NH
> eventual XR4Ti rally car...


ahh. the site responsible for my newfound obsession.

sauna rocks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One of those English cars sure could be built to
> be a performer, that's true. But in order to run
> one of those you need to have a some spare body
> panels laying around.
>
>
>
>

and find an easy way to get the cars here to the states.

I think Jake may be the smartest person in US rally.

So what cars come to your mind?

My thought is that if we ever actually see an easy way to mount the Supra diff in the XR4Ti that it could be the a killing car. It has a few disadvantages though. More shell prep required and lots of overhang. Non-adjustable camber, caster, and rear toe.

But good brakes, adjustable bias, quick steering, good strong driveline with excellent gearbox options, and suspension are all there.

---

Grant Hughes

a FWD subaru impreza/legacy with a turbo motor could maybe be a contender.

you would need to use the turbo to overcome the crappy 3.70 final drive ratio that most (all?) of the front drivers have.

good brakes are available. the quicker steering racks from the WRX/STi will fit. good suspension is available for the front but you may have to get creative for the rears as the FWD rears a pretty different since there is no rear drive shaft back there. the FWD rear struts are longer than the AWD struts but the springs are the same.

maybe someone could get creative and mount up a different trans to the boxer and make the car into RWD. not sure how it would handle. but it cant be too horrible for rally if the drift crowd and road racers in Japan are converting subarus to RWD.

but what the hell do i know?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2007 10:54AM by Greg Donovan.

Greg Donovan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> a FWD subaru impreza/legacy with a turbo motor
> could maybe be a contender.
>
>
>
> but what the hell do i know?
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Apr 13, 2007 by Greg
> Donovan.
Show us 1 result anywhere in the world (other than some rally-x) where there are at least 10 people who know what they're doing where a FWD Subarat or Celica, or DSM has had top results.

Presuming that a competent awd car can be a GOOD fwd car is a huge presumption, and oddly enough those that have tried seem to want to sell off their "gems"...gotta ask whay they selling them?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Greg Donovan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > a FWD subaru impreza/legacy with a turbo
> motor
> > could maybe be a contender.
> >
> >
> >
> > but what the hell do i know?
> >
> >
> >
> > Edited 1 times. Last edit at Apr 13, 2007 by
> Greg
> > Donovan.
> Show us 1 result anywhere in the world (other
> than some rally-x) where there are at least 10
> people who know what they're doing where a FWD
> Subarat or Celica, or DSM has had top results.
>
> Presuming that a competent awd car can be a GOOD
> fwd car is a huge presumption, and oddly enough
> those that have tried seem to want to sell off
> their "gems"...gotta ask whay they selling them?
>
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca


that is why i said could and maybe and contender not "winner."

as well as the "wht the hell do i know part.

i wish i could point to rally results. there is only one G5 impreza running. however, i think that is due more to people wanting an AWD subaru rather than the FWD subaru being a bad car. i dont think it would be a bad car. would it be a great car? maybe.

In my mind how to get a winning car:

1. Driver drives the car close to its limits - all the time.
2. Good tires on the car all the time.
3. Car makes it to the end of events ie finishes, so it is strong and easy to work on, with out too many mystery black boxes etc.
4. Car has very good struts, that give driver confidance to attack all the time over anything in the road.
5. Car has some power about 150 HP at the wheels is more then plenty most of the time, if the driver uses it all.

So I belive:

Brakes - non issue Porterfield R4 pads on most production junk will do the job.
Power - lots of cars have required power.
Limited Slip - You can weld anything and for on gravel rally that works fine, even the most spendy LSD are still not all that much money.
Chassi - by the time you get a good cage in there they are all basically stiff.
Gearbox - if you do not have big turbo motor (or lots of cubic inches) gearing is very important

---

In the long run reality always wins.

Greg Donovan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> that is why i said could and maybe and contender
> not "winner."
>
> as well as the "wht the hell do i know part.
>
> i wish i could point to rally results. there is
> only one G5 impreza running. however, i think
> that is due more to people wanting an AWD subaru
> rather than the FWD subaru being a bad car. i
> dont think it would be a bad car. would it be a
> great car? maybe.

My point is that we have absolutely no way of know IF a car would be any good, the results of those two fwd Subarats in the USA is extremely "modest", and the "Peeee" car was full of blatant cheats----as would be expected of any P car---and even then it was near dead last OA.

BEFORE I would reccomend any car to somebody, I want to see LOTS of top results in hard fields, then we know if the basic CAR is OK, and not just one good driver in classes with one or two poorly prepped cars---like has been the case mostly in USA the last 8 or so years.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Derek

Do you feel that your old Golf would be enough to win?

I do.

derek Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In my mind how to get a winning car:
>
> 1. Driver drives the car close to its limits - all
> the time.
> 2. Good tires on the car all the time.
> 3. Car makes it to the end of events ie finishes,
> so it is strong and easy to work on, with out too
> many mystery black boxes etc.
> 4. Car has very good struts, that give driver
> confidance to attack all the time over anything in
> the road.
> 5. Car has some power about 150 HP at the wheels
> is more then plenty most of the time, if the
> driver uses it all.
>
> So I belive:
>
> Brakes - non issue Porterfield R4 pads on most
> production junk will do the job.
> Power - lots of cars have required power.
> Limited Slip - You can weld anything and for on
> gravel rally that works fine, even the most spendy
> LSD are still not all that much money.
> Chassi - by the time you get a good cage in there
> they are all basically stiff.
> Gearbox - if you do not have big turbo motor (or
> lots of cubic inches) gearing is very important
>
> See me go at:
> www.11tenths.com
> In the long run Reality always wins.

sauna rocks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Derek
>
> Do you feel that your old Golf would be enough to
> win?
>
> I do.

I do too.
As long as he has tires, and as long as the hubs and CVs hold up.

And maybe the rear beam.
>
> derek Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > In my mind how to get a winning car:
> >
> > 1. Driver drives the car close to its limits
> - all
> > the time.
> > 2. Good tires on the car all the time.
> > 3. Car makes it to the end of events ie
> finishes,
> > so it is strong and easy to work on, with out
> too
> > many mystery black boxes etc.
> > 4. Car has very good struts, that give
> driver
> > confidance to attack all the time over
> anything in
> > the road.
> > 5. Car has some power about 150 HP at the
> wheels
> > is more then plenty most of the time, if the
> > driver uses it all.
> >
> > So I belive:
> >
> > Brakes - non issue Porterfield R4 pads on
> most
> > production junk will do the job.
> > Power - lots of cars have required power.
> > Limited Slip - You can weld anything and for
> on
> > gravel rally that works fine, even the most
> spendy
> > LSD are still not all that much money.
> > Chassi - by the time you get a good cage in
> there
> > they are all basically stiff.
> > Gearbox - if you do not have big turbo motor
> (or
> > lots of cubic inches) gearing is very
> important
> >
> > See me go at:
> > www.11tenths.com
> > In the long run Reality always wins.
>
>
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Blah Blah Blah, who cares what JV recomends, I haven't see one of these xcars or bricks out and the cars that are going to win are the ones being driven. subars, vws, nissans, hondas, it will be one of these because that is what is be driven, not the old has been cars that are all on blocks in somebody's garage collecting dust. pedagree or not if its in the stable and not on the stage it ain't gonna win

rallyspecV Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Blah Blah Blah, who cares what JV recomends, I
> haven't see one of these xcars or bricks out and
> the cars that are going to win are the ones being
> driven. subars, vws, nissans, hondas, it will be
> one of these because that is what is be driven,
> not the old has been cars that are all on blocks
> in somebody's garage collecting dust. pedagree or
> not if its in the stable and not on the stage it
> ain't gonna win

I agree except replace 'Subaru, VW, Nissans and Hondas' with SRT-4s (especially the one with #52 on it) , an orange RX7 or whatever he rents that may become orange, a monster Mustang or Mazda3 EvoII. Nichols says he ain't running this year and that was VWs best chance. Will have to see what Malik enters.

I've got FWD Subie gearbox doorstop if someone wants to convert to becoming a MaxAttacker from the AWD ranks. It'll make you feel good. All the cool kids are doing it.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2007 10:51PM by CommanderSalamander.