Big White

From the other PFR thread. Figured I'd start a new one.

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hoche
What's the scoop on Big White? The website hasn't really been updated since last year and it's a scant two months out.

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Morison
Whatca want to know?

The event will be recce on Saturday Dec. 7, Rally Sunday Dec. 8.
Entry fees likely $650 early, $850 late
About 120km of stage distance. Three roads, if we get enough volunteers, two if we don't.
It's snowing up there already
Last year's supps will give you good information to plan with, many of the names are being juggled. Some details will need updated information.
http://www.bigwhiterally.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/RallySupRegs.pdf

As mentioned there, I've never done a snow rally and am trying to figure out a bunch of stuff:

1) Am I gonna need a block warmer or anything like that?
2) Snow tires/studs. I know jack about these. DiscountTire won't tell me anything because they're not available where I live, and calling the local outlets about them just sorta results in a "huh?" I don't like getting tires mounted at an event if I can help it because you never know what can go wrong. At that moment that leaves me with TireRack, which has General Altimax Arctics and Firestone Winterforces for about $65, and Pirelli Winterforces for about $76 (+$15 each for studding). Some are 82Q (99mph) rated, and some are 82S (112mph) rated. Those are 175/65R14s. There are also some 185's available, but I didn't look at them because I understand that skinnier is better.
3) Should have tubes put in the tires?
4) I couldn't tell if there was gas available at the event. If I bring the P-Stock Golf, it runs on pump gas so I don't need to bring high octane, but if is there any pump gas around (maybe that was in the supps - if so, just smack me.)
5) What should I plan on packing in the car during the stages?
6) What's the road like getting up there from Yakima? Seattle? I have cable chains for the van & trailer, but do I need to plan on spending hours chugging along at 25mph or are the roads mostly cleared quickly?
7) How well do gel batteries like an Optima do in weather like that? Should I just get a std lead-acid one for this event? I'm gonna probably replace all my Optimas anyway for other reasons, but I'm talking specifically about cold-weather issues.

This looks like fun, but my idea of "cold" is when it gets down to 50F and I have to put long pants on.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

1) Am I gonna need a block warmer or anything like that?
Assuming you use proper antifreeze in the coolant system and not just water, you shouldn't have a problem. It might also be worth looking at booking at one of the hotels that has indoor heating for overnight. More out of comfort/convenience than need.

2) Snow tires/studs. I know jack about these. DiscountTire won't tell me anything because they're not available where I live, and calling the local outlets about them just sorta results in a "huh?" I don't like getting tires mounted at an event if I can help it because you never know what can go wrong. At that moment that leaves me with TireRack, which has General Altimax Arctics and Firestone Winterforces for about $65, and Pirelli Winterforces for about $76 (+$15 each for studding). Some are 82Q (99mph) rated, and some are 82S (112mph) rated. Those are 175/65R14s. There are also some 185's available, but I didn't look at them because I understand that skinnier is better.
Yah, skinnier is better.
The top finishers have regularly been on Yokohama AO34 non-studded rally snows.
The favorite studded tire around the event has been a Kumho KW-19 which was available in a re-branded (Marshall) form at Wal-Mart, in Canada at least. Kumho has replaced the 19 with a 22 which I use on my daily driver.

3) Should have tubes put in the tires?
You'll get mixed answers on this. I know people who've had success, but you need a lot of talc or corn starch in the tire so the tube doesn't stick to the tire. You might be surprised how much a winter tire rotates around the rim ... if the tube is stuck you'll peel the valve-stem off. If it were me, I wouldn't put in a tube and I'd drive cleanly to protect the sidewalls. There isn't typically a lot of debris to flat on at Big White anyway.

4) I couldn't tell if there was gas available at the event. If I bring the P-Stock Golf, it runs on pump gas so I don't need to bring high octane, but if is there any pump gas around (maybe that was in the supps - if so, just smack me.)

Second item on page 6 of the 2012 supps:
"THERE IS NO FUEL AVAILABLE AT THE RESORT. Teams must bring
all their fuel for recce, service and competition vehicles. Teams must account for their
own fuel for the weekend."
The resort is about 35 miles from the closest gas station but given the nature of the roads that's about a two hour return trip.

5) What should I plan on packing in the car during the stages?
Extras...
- Shovel(s)
- traction mats/cleats (kinda optional, chances are another car or sweep will tug you before you get these out anyway)
- weather gear... winter coat, 'ski' pants, good boots, warm mittens (warmer than gloves), gloves (more dexterity than mittens), 'hotshot' chemichal warmers.
- CARS rules require 'space blankets' in the first aid kits.
- Flashlight, head-lamps
- Food/Water

6) What's the road like getting up there from Yakima? Seattle? I have cable chains for the van & trailer, but do I need to plan on spending hours chugging along at 25mph or are the roads mostly cleared quickly?
All of the roads are cleared quickly ... but that doesn't mean bare pavement the whole way. Most of the 'local' traffic runs on all season tires without much of an issue. It's much more about being smart when the roads get bad. (Robert might have a differing opinion.)

7) How well do gel batteries like an Optima do in weather like that? Should I just get a std lead-acid one for this event? I'm gonna probably replace all my Optimas anyway for other reasons, but I'm talking specifically about cold-weather issues.
I'll let someone else answer this because I haven't really paid attention. (I have yet to compete at this event, I've only ever worked it)

This looks like fun, but my idea of "cold" is when it gets down to 50F and I have to put long pants on.
Then it will be cold for you.
We've been lucky, as a rule, with daytime temps close to or above freezing and sunshine, which is really warm (sunburns happen quickly.)
When the sun goes down, the temps drop. Sunset will be just before 4pm, almost an hour earlier than San Jose.
We run several stages at night, bring lights.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

I'd go with the Altimax Arctics. If we want to argue tires in this thread (I am always down for a good argument), I firmly believe that in the conditions at BigWhite there is not a "large" enough difference for the average competitor to spend over twice the money on A034's. Their biggest advantage is they are much more durable. If studding tires, make sure they follow the WCRC regulations for regional rallies as your competitors WILL notice if you are running gnarly truck ones

I've been reading some info that would seem to indicate that unless you're driving on a fresh, hard ice surface that the studs can bite into, a modern conventional snow tire may have better grip.

A034's are a non-op for me. Not available in 14"s, and a little pricey. Anyway, considering it'll be my first time rallying on snow I don't expect to win the thing. I just don't want to get there to find I have no grip and then get frustrated and grumpy.

Blizzak WS60 studless might be a possibility. $86/ea in my size.

TireRack on the Altimax's: "Molded to accept optional TSMI #12 silver-colored metallic winter studs.", which looks legal.



As a side note, the stuff in the documents section of http://www.rallywest.com/ is ancient. The "latest" WCRC Regulations are from 2006. The "latest" RallyWest Regulations seem to be from 2004. No idea what's still valid.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

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hoche
As a side note, the stuff in the documents section of http://www.rallywest.com/ is ancient. The "latest" WCRC Regulations are from 2006. The "latest" RallyWest Regulations seem to be from 2004. No idea what's still valid.

Hmm, that should have gotten changed around at the end of last year, but Kurt has been doing some updates to the site so it could have reverted to some of the older pages we had. I'll take a look. If you PM me your email, I can send you the latest copy.

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hoche
I've been reading some info that would seem to indicate that unless you're driving on a fresh, hard ice surface that the studs can bite into, a modern conventional snow tire may have better grip.

A034's are a non-op for me. Not available in 14"s, and a little pricey. Anyway, considering it'll be my first time rallying on snow I don't expect to win the thing. I just don't want to get there to find I have no grip and then get frustrated and grumpy.

Blizzak WS60 studless might be a possibility. $86/ea in my size.

TireRack on the Altimax's: "Molded to accept optional TSMI #12 silver-colored metallic winter studs.", which looks legal.



As a side note, the stuff in the documents section of http://www.rallywest.com/ is ancient. The "latest" WCRC Regulations are from 2006. The "latest" RallyWest Regulations seem to be from 2004. No idea what's still valid.

Doooood cut to the chase; ther modern studless things are for ICE and are just OK on snow.. In snow it is the VOID which is key and the long footprint---and the sharp shoulders to look for.
And if it hain't sharp shoulder and no decent gaps, make it so.. sharper turn in.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

SOME of the studdless tires do work well in snow if they have an open pattern as well. The biggest problem is the fact we don't know yet if the stages will be deep snow or more ice. Every year has had a mix of both as well as fresh snow on top of ice. (although mid pack and back doesn't see as much of the fresh snow.)

I was running 00 the first year the event was a stage event and I was cutting fresh tracks on the second last stage (inbound on a turn-around) it was damn near magical. (Thanks again Adam for the loan of your RS)

The stud rules (which are in this document http://www.rallywest.com/files/documents/Rules_and_Regulations/Western_Canada_Rally_Championship_2006-1.pdf) allow up to a 3.5mm exposure, 5mm diameter and must be round. Normal studs have the main body of the stud flush with the tire surface and it seems to be an advantage to have some exposed stud. However, there is too much of a good thing as the tire still does some of the work even with a studded tire and we've seen max exposure studded tires loose grip on ice. (Again, talking about THIS stud set-up specifically.)

If you can ask for 'one size longer' than suggested, you should be in the right ballpark.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Michel! Looking forward to seeing you at Big White. Its a magical, terrifying, wonderful, lunatic rally. You'll fit right in.

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Slowwpoke
terrifying

Those jagerbombs just jump out and get the best of us eh?

We ran studded Kuhmo's in 2011 when there was a mix of deep snow and ice, with sections becoming much slicker on the second pass. No tubes and no problems (2WD Mitsu)
Studs are limited, both in size and number. They provide added grip on ice and packed snow and do not detract from performance on loose or deep snow (nor do they help)
Studs can be pulled if you want to run them without at a different event that does not allow them.
The main reason some 2WD competitors ran studless at the event we were at was to win some Yokohama snow tyres....which Eric did, so clearly they will work (he ran Kuhmo). I think he was the only 2WD who stayed out of the snow banks !

There is underground parking on the hill .

Bring 2 shovels......I wish I had !

I enjoyed the event when i was there, but I'm not sure if it is still a 2 day event.

Hope you make it

Jeff

Thanks for the info everyone. The Kumhos don't seem to be available here. May need to do more research.

From the TireRack photos, it looks like a tossup between the Firestone Winterforces and the General Altimaxes. The Pirelli Winter Carving Edges don't look like they have very big gaps, and had a lesser rating. Hard to tell on any of this though. I will probably get the Altimaxes and will see about getting longer studs as Keith suggested.

From further reading, it sounds like I need to drive the car about 60 miles to properly seat the studs, which will be interesting to do around here. "Hi Officer, that ticking sound is just really noisy valves..."

I already carry a space blanket in my first aid kit and one folding military shovel in the car. I will add another - they're cheap from surplus places. I will probably forgo traction mats but will look into it.

Gas sounds like it's no problem. I already have provision in my van for carrying 15ga of high-octane for the fast Golf; it sounds like I just need to make sure those are full of pump gas for the P-Stock one.

This should be entertaining.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

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hoche
Gas sounds like it's no problem. I already have provision in my van for carrying 15ga of high-octane for the fast Golf; it sounds like I just need to make sure those are full of pump gas for the P-Stock one.

This should be entertaining.

Side note: You may be better getting fuel in Canada. I'm not sure, but I just think I'd rather do a border crossing without a bunch of fuel on board?

I've always been a fan of Nokians. They've gotten stupid expensive in recent years though. We're going to be swithcing to the Altimax Arctic this year just because of the price on street cars.

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Grant Hughes

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NoCoast
Side note: You may be better getting fuel in Canada. I'm not sure, but I just think I'd rather do a border crossing without a bunch of fuel on board?

I did it with 2000L of VP109, what could possibly go wrong? If you have it in jerry cans, they "may" want to tax you on it, if they can be bothered to look for it.

Gas is also expensive in Kelowna, like a $1.269/L . Consider that not only will you need enough fuel for recce/general driving around, but also for racing, and there are significant savings to be had if you bring your fuel with you. (I just did the calculations, Seattle is about 88cents/L right now OMGROFLBBQFML!). So I guess if you have the jerry cans or a drum, you'd save $78 on 200L of fuel.

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hoche
From further reading, it sounds like I need to drive the car about 60 miles to properly seat the studs, which will be interesting to do around here. "Hi Officer, that ticking sound is just really noisy valves..."

This is one of the few occasions where I would actually suggest using the rally car for recce. Since you won't be driving aggressively, you'll seat the studs and you'll also get a feel for how the car reacts on snow/ice.
Should also mention that if you have a way to soften the suspension, do it.

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hoche
I already carry a space blanket in my first aid kit and one folding military shovel in the car. I will add another - they're cheap from surplus places. I will probably forgo traction mats but will look into it.

You should be able to find a short handle, plastic blade shovel locally for small money. You want something that will move a lot of snow in a single swipe. (but not too big either) The folding military shovel will be great for getting in and around the wheels but you also have to think about clearing a path, which means moving a lot of snow in not a lot of time.

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hoche
Gas sounds like it's no problem. I already have provision in my van for carrying 15ga of high-octane for the fast Golf; it sounds like I just need to make sure those are full of pump gas for the P-Stock one.

I wouldn't worry about coming into Canada with fuel on board. We carry fuel back and forth all the time and the cost of gas is higher in Canada.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

When I went to Pierce in February, they torn my van apart at the border crossing into Canada but never even said anything about the gas cans (4 6 gallon containers) on the trailer.

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Don Kennedy