gt86/frs/brz

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Morison

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john vanlandingham
...and takes away a good portion of the driving challenge?

Funny how you make opinion sound so much like fact. The driving challenge in AWD is somewhat different, but it is most certainly still there.
Makes me wonder if you've ever driven an AWD car quickly in an stage rally.

Your usual whining..

Look, again, your a low level hobbyist in motorsport so you want to make it big and exciting and unique..

As we have seen time after time after time since the 1980s, people with a grand toatal of zero previous competition experience in motorsports of any kind have come along, bought high spec turbo 4wd vehicles and immediately begin making high over-all reselts--like 5th-6th or better..right off the bat....

When at same time other people have entered the sport and done simpler 2wd vehicles and done modest to middle results..

INARGUABLY in a sport where the key difficulty/challenge is finding grip where there isn't a lot, a car which has power going to all 4 wheels, reducing the total to any one, nearly guarantees that the major challenge is effectively solved...

You know this but wish to argue and bloviate about what we all know is clear to any observer---and even clearer to anybody who has driven hard a 2wd car and even rudimentary 4wd cars...

Just to use an example of another sport with on loose dirt or mud surfaces and purpose built vehicles, nowhere in the world have we ever seen some person making top 5 National results in motocross.
Indeed most people can't make a 5th place overall in their first YEAR as "C" or novice rider, if they have zero proir practice.


And no I have not driven an AWD car in a Stage rally... I have stated dozens and dozens of times I have only driven my own home built Saab in competition..
But that's a limp attempt to distract--some violation of your 8th grade Debate Club rules you posted...
I HAVE driven my own turbo awd car on gravel, on grass, a lot on snow and ice, and pretty fucking hard on asphalt...

IT IS FUCKING MINDLESSLY SIMPLE.....those riding along---most with a few years driving and familiar with how the Saab went---whatever assholes now want to say about that they can go eat shit and die, their opinions are like most things they say: angry pitiful shit----those observers who had been to plenty to NE events claimed the car was driver "harder and faster than 95% of whatever they seen"..

I wouldn't know....they were even more shall we say dumbfounded when riding along at the ease...

All depends on what you are used to, Morison...

Knowledge and experience can and does TRANSFER---especially when the task is the same.


Go argue if it is correctly called motor or engine, that's more fruitful than pretending that driving a decent turbo 4wd car --at the modest levels we see here in North America---is "difficult".

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham
Your usual whining.

And here I thought of it as discussion.
For someone who regularly attacks me for being excessively declarative in my statements, you sure do post a lot of points that aren't open for discussion. Then, when someone tries to engage you in a discussion you dismiss them as 'whining.'

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john adhomenim
Look, again, your(sic) a low level hobbyist in motorsport so you want to make it big and exciting and unique.

Sure, I'm a hobbiest. Sure, in the grand scheme of things I'm low level. But when you look at Anders' stats that most ralliests won't do more than 3 events ever, I've driven twice as many as most, and competed in more than 10 times as most. But this isn't about me...

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john vanlandingham
As we have seen time after time after time since the 1980s, people with a grand toatal(sic) of zero previous competition experience in motorsports of any kind have come along, bought high spec turbo 4wd vehicles and immediately begin making high over-all reselts(sic)--like 5th-6th or better..right off the bat....

Have we?
Nevertheless, even if we had does that say something about the car being used or the field of competition? (I think it's the latter) Also, '5th-6th or better' doesn't really mean anything. Where are they in relative performance to the winner? How deep was the field? (5th place out of 20 cars isn't nearly the performance as 5th place out of 200... similarly 5th place and a minute off the winner in an hour of racing is better performance that 5th place and 10 minutes off the winner.)

Using my own events as an example: in my first event as a driver (G2 RX7 in the snow) I finished 6th overall, one second out of 5th. An easy second to find. There was 18 cars starting the event, so I also finished in the top third of the field.

But, and this is important, I was also 6 seconds per KM slower than the winner.

In my second event ever as a driver, I finished 8th out of 22, or in the top half of the field.
But, I also ran only about 2.4sec/km slower than the event winner and was only 1.2 seconds slower than the winner of my first event.

Which was the better performance, my 5th overall at 6 sec/k off the pace or my 8th overall 2.4sec/k off the pace?

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john beggingThequestion
INARGUABLY in a sport where the key difficulty/challenge is finding grip where there isn't a lot...

And here I though the key difficulty was finding and managing the limit of the grip.
With an AWD car, those limits are higher and somewhat balanced across all 4 wheels (traction circle on the front wheels excepted) which means the challenge is different than it is for a car with a lower limit and on a car where one end can break traction long before the other end.

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john beggingThequestion
, a car which has power going to all 4 wheels ... nearly guarantees that the major challenge is effectively solved.

If you're happy running at the limit of traction of a car that has less traction... then sure. If you want to run at the limit of traction of the AWD car, then the challenge is still there... its just different.

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john vanlandingham
You know this but wish to argue and bloviate about what we all know is clear to any observer---and even clearer to anybody who has driven hard a 2wd car and even rudimentary 4wd cars...

I worked with a guy once who would commonly say 'as everybody knows' before saying something outlandish. That way, anyone who questioned the outlandish statement had to be willing to look ignorant or out of touch with common knowledge.

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john vanlandingham
...nowhere in the world have we ever seen some person making top 5 National results in motocross. Indeed most people can't make a 5th place overall in their first YEAR as "C" or novice rider, if they have zero proir practice.

Again, as everybody knows, 'top 5' is a meaningless reference.
What level of competition are we talking about?
How deep are the fields?
How close in pace do you need to be 'top 5'

My guess is that just about any motocross event will see fields significantly deeper than any rally event in north america, making 'top 5' a tougher mark to hit in the first place.

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john vanlandingham
And no I have not driven an AWD car in a Stage rally. I have stated dozens and dozens of times I have only driven my own home built Saab in competition..
But that's a limp attempt to distract--some violation of your 8th grade Debate Club rules you posted...

So at least we know that when it comes to rallying AWD, you're not talking from personal experience... good.
As for the "10 commandments of Logic" i posted... it's all about critical thinking and understanding what is being said. Nothing at all to do with 'grade 8 debate club...' which I get the feeling holds some horrible childhood trauma for you. (never, ever, did debate in school)

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john vanlandingham
I HAVE driven my own turbo awd car on gravel, on grass, a lot on snow and ice, and pretty fucking hard on asphalt...

And how does a statement like that normally get received on this forum?

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john vanangryham
IT IS FUCKING MINDLESSLY SIMPLE... followed by some rant about how great he was and how people who question it are mean and evil... yawn

I don't know how in the world you are turning this into an attack on you, or your driving. This isn't about you, or me, or anyone in particular.

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john vanlandingham
I wouldn't know....they were even more shall we say dumbfounded when riding along at the ease...

Last weekend one of the comments I heard was some shock on how little I moved the steering wheel and how calm everything was in the car.

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john vanlandingham
Go argue if it is correctly called motor or engine, that's more fruitful than pretending that driving a decent turbo 4wd car --at the modest levels we see here in North America---is "difficult".

Funny thing is I never said it was difficult. All I said was it was no less of a challenge than driving a 2wd car at the modest levels we see here in North America. I think it is obvious that if you're happy with 2wd speed, then an awd would be less challenging... but that's missing the point completely.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2014 01:15PM by Morison.

Can I post on the F1 forums?? I've driven a Ferrari on the street?

Challenge?? Silly concept. Rally for fun. The challenge is getting there, finishing, beating your last performanc, beating the 2 or 3 cars you're racing and smiling at the end of the weekend. If challenge were somehow JVs ideal then everyone would just drive the sloggy old 1WD NA Volvo wouldn't they. After all there is no challenge if you add a LSD or turbo or 4.80 gearset is there? The single biggest whiner about driving on slick surfaces is JV..every year when SnoDrift hits the forums. No studs..oh the brutality..too much challenge I guess??

Challenge is personal, and there is just as much challenge driving an AWD fast as anything, if there weren't we'd have a few more friends still with us.

Go watch Scott Pedder and Reeves wheel those FWD econoboxs sideways thru the corners in Oz. http://www.rally.com.au/arc-news/ There's a challenge for you , tho slightly different than trying to rally a car 30 or 40 years out of spec.

Everyone who competes in anything looks for an edge, whether it is a turbo for a rally car or studying all night for a spelling bee. Human nature. Do the best you can, live your own life, hold your head high and never accept someone elses limits as your own.

Suggesting that "challenge is a silly concept" is pretty stupd, Gene.

You're not a particularly analytic thinker and in many ways that's good, but if you actually spoke with more people, and actually ever once thought about what they are saying and what that means you would have figured out decades ago that yes what we do is fun, but the nature of that fun is in the perceived difficulty, and the continued interest has roots in the uncertainty of the whole effort...

But that does require some holding in abeyance for a short while the belief that you know everything about everything, even before you weigh and consider anything you've not encountered before, and we know you don't like doing that...not now, not 25 years ago either.

Now the idea of challenge doesn't motivate everybody and whole "sports" are structured so that many participants are nearly assured of a result....a consistent, regular surface and 30 or more classes helps more people know before they leave home that they'll be "a winner".
SCCA cone squishing and road racing springs to mind and we've seen here in PNW region 30+ classes for 75 entries.....

If you reflected, and if you spoke with/read those who wonder about the decreased entries in higher levels of rally in many parts of the world where it was formerly much more participation and more events and more spectators a central part from people from all over is that the cars are NOW so good that the perception is "it's predictable" and "the cars are on rails, it's to easy (if you have the top spec car)...

And that the major challenge is coming up with the hundreds of thousands of dollars for the car---the financial part... (how many guys have we "lost" because they can't justify the expense of even local events?)

Again, if you ever considered other people's opinions, and that there could be differences you might ponder "why do some people want to do our little sport---and others want to smoosh cones?"
I have and I've asked a huge number if noobs in the last 30 years...Rally or potential rally guys what's the interst, why: "the challenge!" "the adventure",

Again if you reflected/remembered you'd recall that for more than 10 years SCCAs blurbs on rally had a central motif of the emmense difficulty which they splashed all over "Over ther years 300/400 9whatever) have entred rallies and only 50 (or 60 or whatever) have EVER FINISHED..

Auto-x and road racers I have directly asked "Why that class when it restricts any mods or fun so much" they say "I can win that class (and some say, in unconscious honesty) There's only one (or 2) guys in the class.."

But whatever, this is all just blah blah, John is bad, full of shit, Gene is genius...

Such a shame you have such a narnow, limited horizon, and such animus.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

You're nothing but a sit at home wanna be hypocrite . Who are you to define challenge for someone else? Why are you so totally disrepectful of others achievements? Why can Ramana rent a low spec 2wd (nice car tho) and do quite well and you talk crap about him? Jealousy? Does it make you fell better about your nasty little self? What about the 'challenge' he completed?

Explain exactly the difference in challenge when someone slaps on a turbo to beat a fellow competitor? How is that different that adding AWD? How is driving at the level of Block, Travis, Higgins in AWD somehow less challenging than the driving of Hendo or O'Driscoll or Garth?

How is demanding studs on a snow event different than AWD on gravel? It's not, is it? The challenge you put forth is strictly from your tortured soul and nothing to do with the rest of the worlds talent or desires. Challenge is different for different people and circumstances. Personally..having rallied all three platforms (unlike you) I think RWD is easier. Shuffling a FWD or AWD at the limits is what I would consider a driving challenge.

ANYHOW..I don't think the BRZ will be the savior of rally. I think it is more of a Miata sedan deal. OK on tarmac, grossly underpowered for rally. Add a turbo or 2.5 might help. Be interesting to see what happens after the Toy / Sube split and the platform goes two different directions, if it does.

Gene I am just telling you what hundreds have said (my work does bring me in contact over the last 30 years with a LOT of people in a lot of places---and I can speak to them, ya know---)...

And sit at home? I raced around 3 fucking whole CONTINENTS Gene....raced in 7-8 different countries, lived in 40-50 places in 6-7
countries, and YOU!!! You calling me sit at home?

Get a grip Gene.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Really..I said that ? Let me check..hmm..you're correct I did. Since I don't see any JV motocross apparel on my collectors shelf I'd guess the ancient Eurocross stuff was a failure? You may come in contact with people but we all know most never get a word in edgewise..

My point is that YOU do not know anything of the difficulty of going fast at even the top regional level in the US in any platform, so don't be so judgemental of those choosing AWD as their weapon of choice. Keith and I both have more experience than you, even tho we may be total, worthless derelicts in your eyes. It is all degrees of 'challenge'. You whine something terrible about SnoDrift and the no studs policy, berating both organizers and sanctioning body. You demand people be allowed to run on studs, yet that reduces the challenge..yes? What is the difference between LSD in RWD and AWD with open diffs? I doubt that any of our (oh so slow) top AWD competitors (even the regional guys) think there is no risk, no effort, no difficulty and that it is pouring water out of a boot easy.

These days the 'challenge' is just getting to an event, or maybe even finding an event to get to. The platform chosen is not important and anyone who rallies deserves a fair amount of respect for just getting there.

Holy shit it is hot outside, bought one of them weed burners from Harbor Freight and getting the driveway cleaned up for the wedding in two weeks.

Cane swinging in effect! I love my HF weed burner. Also useful to quick start charcoal in a hurry.

---

Grant Hughes

Quote
heymagic
Really..I said that ? Let me check..hmm..you're correct I did. Since I don't see any JV motocross apparel on my collectors shelf I'd guess the ancient Eurocross stuff was a failure? You may come in contact with people but we all know most never get a word in edgewise..

My point is that YOU do not know anything of the difficulty of going fast at even the top regional level in the US in any platform, so don't be so judgemental of those choosing AWD as their weapon of choice. Keith and I both have more experience than you, even tho we may be total, worthless derelicts in your eyes. It is all degrees of 'challenge'. You whine something terrible about SnoDrift and the no studs policy, berating both organizers and sanctioning body. You demand people be allowed to run on studs, yet that reduces the challenge..yes? What is the difference between LSD in RWD and AWD with open diffs? I doubt that any of our (oh so slow) top AWD competitors (even the regional guys) think there is no risk, no effort, no difficulty and that it is pouring water out of a boot easy.

These days the 'challenge' is just getting to an event, or maybe even finding an event to get to. The platform chosen is not important and anyone who rallies deserves a fair amount of respect for just getting there.

Holy shit it is hot outside, bought one of them weed burners from Harbor Freight and getting the driveway cleaned up for the wedding in two weeks.

Yeah yeah you the man, you were soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo fast you won everything....

In your dreams, Gene....

You say "stay at home blah blah"
Just to remind our dear readers: when you got married you dropped out of the sport 100% for what? 15 years or what.

You can keep on dreaming that my results after you quit were and are shit...fine. As I said, you were right up there battling for the lead with Buffum and Millen and Kankunen and Alen..all with a Locker and some KYBs...
I say they were whatever they were---they were HOBBY, low key, low investment...a pleasant pass-time...3rds and 4rhs and 5ths overall in every event in the 90s wasn't bad, and it was fun, and like now, back then the cost of doing more ratcheted up by a couple of factors and it wasn't worth it, not just for some casual playing in the woods for cheap...

Your continued dragging that ancient shit out really makes you look like a very petty and pitiful person to have to tear down shit for more than 20 years ago to try to win a stupid discussion now....

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Just stating the facts vs your disdainful opinion. Want to compare rally dust catchers? I still have boxes full down stairs. You have a market cornered on 20 year old shit? I didn't quit when I got married, you wouldn't know that because you rarely showed up. I rallied several years after that, rallied with a preggers wife as co-driver, rallied after my son was born. Finally quit after John Christensen t-boned a stump and I found myself thinking about the wreck I had just passed while doing 100+ down a goat path. It was time and the wife wanted to buy a boat, so we did.

Now back to the real subject..
Grant, that weed burner is awesome ! Wonder what it would do on sound deadening? Kidding..do not try that at home!!

So both Gundies AW and B&R have some form of wrecked BRZ/FRS by checking on car-part.com for 1/4 panels and manual transmissions. Wait until the first winter ice storm or snowfall, more be availble then.

Fuck you. No, fuck you! No, Fuuuuuccccccckkkkk Yoooooouuuuuu!

Sheesh.

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

TL/DR for this thread:

Someday, Junior Varsity will kick the bucket, and the world will let out a great wet raspberry of relief in the general direction of his passing.

John, its not that I hate your or dislike you, its that you simply suck. At everything. The only people that like you are the sheeple who dont know any better... Which makes your rants even more humorous.

In short, go diaf, and give your family a chance to be normal!

Any further response to my post from you merits responses of:

1)nobody likes you you bitter old washed up never-been
2)go get help, you have brain damage. The hypocrisy and mental rigamoral you go through, while humorous, must be a real burden on others who have to deal with you in real life