Can RWD win 2wd national events consistently?

With a proper driver, of course. Seems like FWD runs the show on a regular basis.

Yes, and it has been done here very recently.

Will Orders in 2012 & 2013 had 2 wins, 1 2nd (after mechanical problems), and 2 DNFs (I think both while leading)

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One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

No.
Cars don't win events- the crews that use them do.
Few, if any, are pushing the platforms they are driving to the limit and until you get there you'll be able to get more 'advantage' out of driver training than optimizing an already capable platform.

The interesting question is if the same driver would be faster in a RWD or FWD car, given enough time to get to know and understand each car. Of course there are no absolutes but having driven FWD, RWD and AWD on stage roads I'd say RWD is the toughest to get speed out of on the stage. (Yungins who grew up on FWD cars are usually WAY behind the car in reacting.)

The SRDC might have some interesting observations here too.

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Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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b00sted
With a proper driver, of course. Seems like FWD runs the show on a regular basis.

"Here' so poor---the "sharp end of the stick" is literally on a different day of the week than "Real" drivers---"the sharp end of the stick" would have a hard time winning against B drivers where they have A/B/C .

The clock does not lie.
The eye does not lie.

So of course a 2wd car can win...


Oh wait you're asking about just against other 2wd cars can REAR drive win..

Of course...

You seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeem to be asking a question "Why do it seem there's FWD cars winning 2WD "National" events.


And that gets into shmoozability, OPM, all kinds of wheelin and dealin....


There is nothing about US or Canadian gravel, or the tires we use or the Laws (of physics) operating here vs the "major" gravel countries (GB, N, S, SF, Oz, NZ)
The difference in the cars regularly seen stems not from any reality or concrete things but by individual choices..

And the "Blind leading the blind"....constant repetition of halv-truths, extremely limited experience repeated as if it is a "truth".....repeated again and again when others correct the claims...in line with the No1 Rule of Internet forums: Never concede a mm.


So whaddya reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallly asking?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Absolutely.

The question wasn't about the driver and crews, it was about the platform. Assuming similar top-prepared cars and drivers experienced with them, I think it mostly comes down to the specifics of a particular event and the roads it has, and I don't think we have any events that really give FWD an advantage.

FWD runs the show on a regular basis here because that's what people are running. It sounds redundant, but really that's all it is. The entry lists are stacked with FWD so FWD wins more. Part of that is because certain platforms build up momentum; lots of people drive Golfs because lots of other people drive Golfs and they know that those other people have had success with them. We're starting to see the same thing happen with Fiesta R2's.

We'll probably see a growth in RWD cars again as the BMW fad catches on.


I'm deliberately ignoring the issue of driver/crew experience; that wasn't part of the original question and is a whole separate topic.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

Asymptotically every time.

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Grant Hughes

Yeah, just seeing Orders go by once, the answer to this question is obviously very much yes.

With Order the question becomes, "I wonder if he's going to win overall?"

I'm a nobody but even in all of the gravel countries it seems like FWD wins more? I mean I'm pretty sure its because very few homologated cars are RWD and most of the fast drivers try to drive in homologated cars to get as far up the "ladder" as possible because why the hell not. But in almost every results list I see the fastest 2WD car is some S1600 blahblahblah or R3 blahblahblah.

JV what is SF????

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LexusFman
I'm a nobody but even in all of the gravel countries it seems like FWD wins more? I mean I'm pretty sure its because very few homologated cars are RWD and most of the fast drivers try to drive in homologated cars to get as far up the "ladder" as possible because why the hell not. But in almost every results list I see the fastest 2WD car is some S1600 blahblahblah or R3 blahblahblah.

JV what is SF????

Initials for the country known as Ralli-paradis

Like:


SF= Suomi/Finland is Finland in Finnish and Swedish, the 2 official languages.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

We're getting side tracked here. Yes its possible but given the same crew the RWD platform is at a dynamic disadvantage to and FWD. Its a known fact, and for many reasons. For a RWD to perform at the same rate its going to need a higher spec. Will Orders was used as an example, so lets continue to use him as such, his car was nothing short of a gatling gun with 350hp/350tp 6 spd seq etc etc. On the same token the other hombre from down south Reeves with a POS siesta and 180hp was pedaling it at the same efficacy.

The more technical and slower the event is the greater the deficiency RWD has, that's why in the likes of finland you can still get way with RWD. I mean with those roads you could run a cup car or a late model and still do well.

This thread made me think of this:
http://www.wetheterrors.com/why-did-i-come-here-i-came-here-because-i-needed-to-get-better/

"See, if you’re not sitting alongside Ken Block, David Higgins, or Antoine L’Estage, rallying in the US isn’t all that competitive, and usually (outside of those three), you’re going to finish where your driver’s skill and car places them, given that you’re a competent navigator and don’t make big mistakes. Call every note a tad too early and cost a few tenths of a second every few corners? No difference. Scared about how to note the line through that nasty kick in the middle of a blind crest on a windy, narrow piece of road? You can just go slowly through it because it won’t make a difference. Of course, as the navigator, you need to have the sense to identify that nasty bit of road in the first place, but you won’t need to figure out how on earth you could take it flat and still get away with it. You don’t need to push yourself that far."

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Grant Hughes

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Cosworth
We're getting side tracked here.

The more technical and slower the event is the greater the deficiency RWD has, that's why in the likes of finland you can still get way with RWD. I mean with those roads you could run a cup car or a late model and still do well.

Right. and in Norte America our roads are on average much faster than Finland.
I think specifically the thing is if we happened to be on a "snixiga" roads (had to look up 'snixiga---twisting) and we're not like railin' all thru the gears but rather doing turn--turn turn turn turn all in a range of 1 or 2 gears max---say screamin in 2nd on off up down then snick into 3rd and immediate down to 2nd and on and on

then we don't have the situation we can every time mash the brakes and shift weight forward the weight the front... THERE and only there , it is a clear advantage to have the weight in front over the drive wheels.

On OUR roads 24 to 90mph 98% of the time and 40-75mph the bulk of things within that, it isn't drive configuration, its more engine torque x box ratios to keep it going-x final drive x steering x brakes.
If a FWD or a RWD or a 4WD has that and the driver has a clue it will shake out the way its gonna.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

While it's not an answer to the question posed, I would throw in a thought about RWD vs FWD as 2WD goes. I'm curious to people's opinions on it.

FWD car has a much smaller road area that it needs to maintain to stay in good shape on a stage, as the steering and drive are coming from the 2 front wheels and overall the "important" area is very small.

RWD needs both the front and rear wheels to be in a good location on the stage, making the important area much larger at any given point in time.

Seems to me that makes FWD much more forgiving to errors and a bit more flexible in terms of what line can be taken in spots. Everyone makes an error on a corner here and there, no matter how good you are, and I feel like this difference in usable square footage at any given point on a stage probably plays a significant role.

I know John's views on longer wheelbase cars for US stages, and it feels like the higher speeds here actually just amplifies that situation, since when you're sideways, that longer wheelbase means you need to get that corner even more spot on to keep all your wheels in the right area.

However, as long as you don't mind playing on expert difficulty, of course you can win in an RWD car. http://www.columbiavalleypioneer.com/?p=10749

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john vanlandingham
Right. and in Norte America our roads are on average much faster than Finland.
I think specifically the thing is if we happened to be on a "snixiga" roads (had to look up 'snixiga---twisting) and we're not like railin' all thru the gears but rather doing turn--turn turn turn turn all in a range of 1 or 2 gears max---say screamin in 2nd on off up down then snick into 3rd and immediate down to 2nd and on and on

then we don't have the situation we can every time mash the brakes and shift weight forward the weight the front... THERE and only there , it is a clear advantage to have the weight in front over the drive wheels.

On OUR roads 24 to 90mph 98% of the time and 40-75mph the bulk of things within that, it isn't drive configuration, its more engine torque x box ratios to keep it going-x final drive x steering x brakes.
If a FWD or a RWD or a 4WD has that and the driver has a clue it will shake out the way its gonna.

I was talking about the differences in platforms FWD vs RWD. We all know US stages are more like Dakar stages. Heck every time I show a video to my paisanos they start laughing and joking that its not real rally because the stages look wider and straighter than most highways in Europe. True story.

i always felt the down side to fwd is the front tyres do a lot of work
steering, braking and pulling the car
not that pushing the whole car is much better

that said i like driving both what you can do with one you can't do with the other in some cases

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I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2014 06:40AM by tdrrally.