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Morison
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Morison
3 weeks and 25 posts to get to...
August 13, 2012 04:47PM
"...an edited post full of moderator approved, non-threating 100% pleasant thoughts in full compliance with the dicates of the Overseers who rule this temple of wisdom."

http://www.specialstage.com/forums/showthread.php?46233-Interested-to-see-what-our-friends-in-the-US-make-of-this-in-Europe-maybe-in-2013!&p=419730#post419730


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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.
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john vanlandingham
Re: 3 weeks and 25 posts to get to...
August 13, 2012 05:32PM
Quote
Morison
"...an edited post full of moderator approved, non-threating 100% pleasant thoughts in full compliance with the dicates of the Overseers who rule this temple of wisdom."

http://www.specialstage.com/forums/showthread.php?46233-Interested-to-see-what-our-friends-in-the-US-make-of-this-in-Europe-maybe-in-2013!&p=419730#post419730

Liked that did you?
Overflowing with pleasant thought got you down?

Got something to say? Or just trying infer something ominous ---as you always do?
Seems like somebody didn't like a reference to Dave Richards as "megalomaniac extraordinaire" and Kurt Spitzner as "his lil buddy and pale imitator" and as "the horribly ironically mis-named Kurt Spitzner"..

and hatched the post to pieces.

Let's see you believe you are both highly intelligent and a great concise writer.
Right now real quick----- tell everybody what is so ironic about Spitzner's name in the context he was in..
Quick, don't look it up...it's really almost not even irony, it's nearly slapstick..
Why is that name so funny?

I'll give you 2 minutes.


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Morison
Re: 3 weeks and 25 posts to get to...
August 13, 2012 06:18PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Got something to say? Or just trying infer something ominous ---as you always do?

Relax, dudarino.
While I'm not surprised you'd feel the impact of the moderators fairly quickly, I was actually kind of interested in what it was that pushed them over the edge. A thread 'over there' would probably neither be productive nor last very long.

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john vanlandingham
Seems like somebody didn't like a reference to Dave Richards as "megalomaniac extraordinaire" and Kurt Spitzner as "his lil buddy and pale imitator" and as "the horribly ironically mis-named Kurt Spitzner"

See, that's what I was looking for... nothing more.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Let's see you believe you are both highly intelligent and a great concise writer.

Sigh, putting words in my mouth again John.
I think I'm reasonably intelligent, a reasonable writer and a good editor. There are many in those fields who are much better than I am, but I can get the job done and done reasonably well.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Right now real quick----- tell everybody what is so ironic about Spitzner's name in the context he was in.

I've never claimed to be good a name origins or obscure references.
Certainly, in your post referenced above, you say '...the man whose very name originally means "Leader"...'
I've never had any reason to doubt that.
(Although I wouldn't mind hearing where you get that from)


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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2012 06:20PM by Morison.
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john vanlandingham
Re: 3 weeks and 25 posts to get to...
August 13, 2012 07:15PM
Quote
Morison
Quote
john vanlandingham
Got something to say? Or just trying infer something ominous ---as you always do?

Relax, dudarino.
While I'm not surprised you'd feel the impact of the moderators fairly quickly, I was actually kind of interested in what it was that pushed them over the edge. A thread 'over there' would probably neither be productive nor last very long.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Seems like somebody didn't like a reference to Dave Richards as "megalomaniac extraordinaire" and Kurt Spitzner as "his lil buddy and pale imitator" and as "the horribly ironically mis-named Kurt Spitzner"

See, that's what I was looking for... nothing more.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Let's see you believe you are both highly intelligent and a great concise writer.

Sigh, putting words in my mouth again John.
I think I'm reasonably intelligent, a reasonable writer and a good editor. There are many in those fields who are much better than I am, but I can get the job done and done reasonably well.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Right now real quick----- tell everybody what is so ironic about Spitzner's name in the context he was in.

I've never claimed to be good a name origins or obscure references.
Certainly, in your post referenced above, you say '...the man whose very name originally means "Leader"...'
I've never had any reason to doubt that.
(Although I wouldn't mind hearing where you get that from)

Ah yeah you got the revised all flowers and ponies version.
Yes anybody with rudimentary knowledge of racetrack related German knows that the leader in German is ,,der Spitzner'' from tip or point dem spitz.
As you know Spitzner was hired to be a gopher-boy writing bland "For Immediate Release" type stuff for "Secret Car Club Anonymous".....and rather immediately began writing that he had "a vision" which was to "increase professionalism" by getting 6-8 "full professional teams" on which the stated intentions was that "all media attention would be focused on"..

In short, although he was far too stupid to understand what his words meant, that the "Pro Rally series" was to become a de-facto free subsidiary of the ad-departments at Subaru and Mitsubishi. We, the drivers, co-drivers, all the volunteers, staffs, everybody was supposed to buy new cars so it looked good in the background while the media only ever featured
the Big Boys" in an unashamedly homo-erotic giveaway, because as he said "It's only natural that the media will concentrate on those that have paid for it"--implying and actually ignoring privateer results higher than the "Factory" teams --run by VSC and some shop in LA.

Many were not thrilled to be told we should all pay and go thru the motions of having rallies just so the ad copy might have a sheen of realism about it.

Rules were applied in blatantly favorable--or disfavorable ways, rules were made up----by Spitzner, there was a "Pro-rally Board, but they did nothing.---a mysterious "Manufacturer's Council" was invented which if a brand wanted any of their results to count or show in the "Makes Championship" they had to give Spitzner $25000, so for example VW didn't pay the bribe, and no VW result counted towards "Makes Championship" and some obscure brand won with just a few results...

He was a cheap version of the corner pusher talking a schtick about the big time and factory contracts, full time jobs all around the corner.
And utterly full of shit.
And a total whore to anybody with money...

Thus the appropriateness of dredging up the sorry memory of the prick when the crowd of nice guys doing real rally-cross has this bright idea by some office cocksuckers promo twits sounding exactly the same...

But yes, very sad to see the approriately named SS.com acting so odd about an ironic reference to the guys name, which I am sure the Mod is totally unaware, and not even curious enough to reflect---or ask even..

One has to wonder how called people idiots in the following post is let stand as that seems a little less all snowflakes and bunnies that "the horribly ironically mis-named.."


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Morison
Re: 3 weeks and 25 posts to get to...
August 13, 2012 07:45PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
But yes, very sad to see the approriately named SS.com acting so odd about an ironic reference to the guys name, which I am sure the Mod is totally unaware, and not even curious enough to reflect---or ask even..

One has to wonder how called people idiots in the following post is let stand as that seems a little less all snowflakes and bunnies that "the horribly ironically mis-named.."

I suspect the reason you were unfairly singled out is that as a commercial entity they will watch out for their own interests above all else. With that in mind, anything that approaches libel/defamation will be quickly acted on to prevent any suits or threat their of (from suits.) As owners of the site, they actually take on responsibility for what is 'published' by the community members.

Of course, there is a big difference between 'those idiots' and 'Dave Richards is a megalomaniac extraordinaire' in terms of actionable defamation regardless of the truth of the statement. (Not all jurisdictions require defamatory statements to be false.)


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Re: 3 weeks and 25 posts to get to...
August 13, 2012 08:41PM
I too was a bit curious as to what the content was that got obliterated. Not all that bad, it'll be interesting to see how the moderation goes. Right now I'd guess it is going to be a bit overboard. We'll see if Grant gets it next....grinning smiley
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john vanlandingham
Re: 3 weeks and 25 posts to get to...
August 13, 2012 08:59PM
Quote
Morison
Quote
john vanlandingham
But yes, very sad to see the approriately named SS.com acting so odd about an ironic reference to the guys name, which I am sure the Mod is totally unaware, and not even curious enough to reflect---or ask even..

One has to wonder how called people idiots in the following post is let stand as that seems a little less all snowflakes and bunnies that "the horribly ironically mis-named.."

I suspect the reason you were unfairly singled out is that as a commercial entity they will watch out for their own interests above all else. With that in mind, anything that approaches libel/defamation will be quickly acted on to prevent any suits or threat their of (from suits.) As owners of the site, they actually take on responsibility for what is 'published' by the community members.

Of course, there is a big difference between 'those idiots' and 'Dave Richards is a megalomaniac extraordinaire' in terms of actionable defamation regardless of the truth of the statement. (Not all jurisdictions require defamatory statements to be false.)

Note: there are significant differences between libel, slander and especially defamation.
In defamation, truth of a statement is not the ultimate defense. It is the intention of the person making the utterance which makes a statement criminal---and that's the other thing. Libel and slander are usually Civil, defamation, the intent can make it criminal.

Parody, satire and irony of public figures and Richard certainly qualifies as a public figure are have always been allowed in all free societies, but while the trappings of freedom exist in USA, in the minds of many people there is a paranoid policemen always living in fear of non-existent threats.
Indeed culturally that ever present all dominating fear and insecurity is one of the key personality traits of most Americans, and the source of many well known cliche, the prime motivation of half the country and the keystone of one major party's domestic and foreign policy---always some nefarious, cunning enemy* and if you don't believe me, I'll sue you.

It was a really excellent piece of what I believe the new corporate masters would like every post to be like, the edited version that is..

We are all unique snow flakes. Some just a little flakier than others.

*in 1964 an an astute observer wrote an essay called The Paranoid Style of American Politics. It was just at the time of the raving lunatic Barry Goldwater---who wanted to drop H-bombs on Hanoi---
He did not single out just Right wing Extremists, he laid out the idea as something that has been part of the US political/social scene since the beginning. always some "other" who are all powerful who basically are gonna git you.
He wrote about the arch typical American Right wing Extremist:
Quote

As a member of the avant-garde who is capable of perceiving the conspiracy before it is fully obvious to an as yet unaroused public, the paranoid is a militant leader. He does not see social conflict as something to be mediated and compromised, in the manner of the working politician. Since what is at stake is always a conflict between absolute good and absolute evil, what is necessary is not compromise but the will to fight things out to a finish. Since the enemy is thought of as being totally evil and totally unappeasable, he must be totally eliminated—if not from the world, at least from the theatre of operations to which the paranoid directs his attention. This demand for total triumph leads to the formulation of hopelessly unrealistic goals, and since these goals are not even remotely attainable, failure constantly heightens the paranoid’s sense of frustration. Even partial success leaves him with the same feeling of powerlessness with which he began, and this in turn only strengthens his awareness of the vast and terrifying quality of the enemy he opposes.
The enemy is clearly delineated: he is a perfect model of malice, a kind of amoral superman—sinister, ubiquitous, powerful, cruel, sensual, luxury-loving. Unlike the rest of us, the enemy is not caught in the toils of the vast mechanism of history, himself a victim of his past, his desires, his limitations. He wills, indeed he manufactures, the mechanism of history, or tries to deflect the normal course of history in an evil way. He makes crises, starts runs on banks, causes depressions, manufactures disasters, and then enjoys and profits from the misery he has produced. The paranoid’s interpretation of history is distinctly personal: decisive events are not taken as part of the stream of history, but as the consequences of someone’s will. Very often the enemy is held to possess some especially effective source of power: he controls the press; he has unlimited funds; he has a new secret for influencing the mind (brainwashing); he has a special technique for seduction (the Catholic confessional).
It is hard to resist the conclusion that this enemy is on many counts the projection of the self; both the ideal and the unacceptable aspects of the self are attributed to him. The enemy may be the cosmopolitan intellectual, but the paranoid will outdo him in the apparatus of scholarship, even of pedantry. Secret organizations set up to combat secret organizations give the same flattery. The Ku Klux Klan imitated Catholicism to the point of donning priestly vestments, developing an elaborate ritual and an equally elaborate hierarchy. The John Birch Society emulates Communist cells and quasi-secret operation through “front” groups, and preaches a ruthless prosecution of the ideological war along lines very similar to those it finds in the Communist enemy.* Spokesmen of the various fundamentalist anti-Communist “crusades” openly express their admiration for the dedication and discipline the Communist cause calls forth.
On the other hand, the sexual freedom often attributed to the enemy, his lack of moral inhibition, his possession of especially effective techniques for fulfilling his desires, give exponents of the paranoid style an opportunity to project and express unacknowledgeable aspects of their own psychological concerns. Catholics and Mormons—later, Negroes and Jews—have lent themselves to a preoccupation with illicit sex. Very often the fantasies of true believers reveal strong sadomasochistic outlets, vividly expressed, for example, in the delight of anti-Masons with the cruelty of Masonic punishments.

For a substantial portion of this country, irrational beliefs are the norm, including irrational fears of "potential lawsuits". It varies by area, and varies by individuals and is so pervasive that its not given much thought 'can't see the forest for all the trees' specially when you're a tree.


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Morison
Re: 3 weeks and 25 posts to get to...
August 13, 2012 09:35PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Note: there are significant differences between libel, slander and especially defamation.

Source?
Everything I have ever seen on libel and slander has always described them as types of defamation and doesn't suggest they are different. (Keep in mind I have been invoved in newspapers/publishing for 23 years.)

Quote
john vanlandingham
Parody, satire and irony of public figures and Richard certainly qualifies as a public figure are have always been allowed in all free societies...

Perhaps, but that doesn't make public figures 'open game' for name calling. You can still (easily) defame public figures.

Quote
john vanlandingham
For a substantial portion of this country, irrational beliefs are the norm, including irrational fears of "potential lawsuits". It varies by area, and varies by individuals and is so pervasive that its not given much thought 'can't see the forest for all the trees' specially when you're a tree.

I don't know that the fears are irrational at all. The US in particular is a society where more often than not it is he with the most lawyers who wins. Regularly suits without any substance are 'settled out of court' simply because it is the cheaper route to go. As a 'publisher' (IE: new overlords of SS.com) it is cheaper, and more effective, to err on the side of caution and clamp down on anything that could be seen as defamation.


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Re: 3 weeks and 25 posts to get to...
August 13, 2012 09:45PM
Quote
heymagic
I too was a bit curious as to what the content was that got obliterated. Not all that bad, it'll be interesting to see how the moderation goes. Right now I'd guess it is going to be a bit overboard. We'll see if Grant gets it next....grinning smiley

Need to send Grant a couple of cases of PBR, stat! grinning smiley


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john vanlandingham
Re: 3 weeks and 25 posts to get to...
August 13, 2012 10:11PM
Quote
Morison
Quote

Quote
john vanlandingham
Note: there are significant differences between libel, slander and especially defamation.

Source?

Source? Look them up.

Quote

Everything I have ever seen on libel and slander has always described them as types of defamation and doesn't suggest they are different. (Keep in mind I have been invoved in newspapers/publishing for 23 years.)

keep in mind I have a friend for 40 years who has been th Codifier first in the WA State Hoouse for 20+ years, then in WA State Senate for 15+.
Our friendship is based on a love of language. And keep in mind I worked in law for a while when trying to get away from car work. I got the job based on interviews where it was clear I understand when there is a different word, it means something.
The reasons there is a crime called defamation--and it is a crime---is because of the legal concept called mens rea look it up.

Quote

Quote
john vanlandingham
Parody, satire and irony of public figures and Richard certainly qualifies as a public figure are have always been allowed in all free societies...

Perhaps, but that doesn't make public figures 'open game' for name calling. You can still (easily) defame public figures.

Dave Richard is a megalomanic, that's a description not name calling.
"dave richards is an asshole" is an example of "name calling.
Distinctions count.

Quote
john vanlandingham
For a substantial portion of this country, irrational beliefs are the norm, including irrational fears of "potential lawsuits". It varies by area, and varies by individuals and is so pervasive that its not given much thought 'can't see the forest for all the trees' specially when you're a tree.

I don't know that the fears are irrational at all. The US in particular is a society where more often than not it is he with the most lawyers who wins. Regularly suits without any substance are 'settled out of court' simply because it is the cheaper route to go. As a 'publisher' (IE: new overlords of SS.com) it is cheaper, and more effective, to err on the side of caution and clamp down on anything that could be seen as defamation.

You wouldn't. eye rolling smiley

Read the essay, It's good clear clean writing anybody who appreciates concise writing---and lives in the long shadow cast by an increasing isolated and paranoid country---should enjoy.
You guys may think you're Texans but you're not. Your country is still part of Canada.
And if I lived someplace sitting on huge energy reserves with an indefensible border with USA, I sure as hell would read it...followed by PNAC, the ideological foundation that gives those paranoid people their policy statements.
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/conspiracy_theory/the_paranoid_mentality/the_paranoid_style.html


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Morison
Re: 3 weeks and 25 posts to get to...
August 14, 2012 12:32PM
First things first.
John, you're not stupid and no-one thinks you are... so please, PLEASE learn, or take the time, to properly use [/quote] tags!
If I can do it, surely you can.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Source? Look them up.
That's just the thing. When I look at definitions for slander or libel in common usage they are always defined as types of defamation. Since you're the only source saying differently the onus is on you to show me where it is different.
Merriam Webster's thesaurus offers defamation as a synonym for both libel and slander. (Oxford isn't online)
http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/libel

Quote

The reasons there is a crime called defamation--and it is a crime---is because of the legal concept called mens rea look it up.
But we're talking about common, but still correct, language not legal definitions. Defamation isn't necessarily 'criminal defamation.'


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heymagic
Re: 3 weeks and 25 posts to get to...
August 14, 2012 04:45PM
Well I'm not an attorney, nor did I sleep in a hotel last nite but...translating what John said into provable damages would be very difficult in this day and age. Obama and Romney , as well as their supporters, will say much worse about each other.
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Re: 3 weeks and 25 posts to get to...
August 14, 2012 05:04PM
Quote
heymagic
Well I'm not an attorney, nor did I sleep in a hotel last nite but...translating what John said into provable damages would be very difficult in this day and age. Obama and Romney , as well as their supporters, will say much worse about each other.

I fully agree.

All I was saying is that the overlords will err on the side of extreme caution in cases that could lead to the *threat* of legal action. The reality is the moderators probably have no idea who Dave Richards or Kurt Spitzner are, or that they probably would never see the post nor be of the belief that their reputations would be defamed by the ramblings of the CEO of JVAB in some (relative) backwater web forum. Or, as some have suggested, that having JVL go off on you is some sort of badge of honor. (No 'u' in 'hounour' since it was was an US resident that made that comment)

All they see is someone being potentially libeled and identified by name so they'll duck and cover.


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john vanlandingham
Re: 3 weeks and 25 posts to get to...
August 14, 2012 05:33PM
Quote
Morison
Quote
heymagic
Well I'm not an attorney, nor did I sleep in a hotel last nite but...translating what John said into provable damages would be very difficult in this day and age. Obama and Romney , as well as their supporters, will say much worse about each other.

I fully agree.

All I was saying is that the overlords will err on the side of extreme caution in cases that could lead to the *threat* of legal action. The reality is the moderators probably have no idea who Dave Richards or Kurt Spitzner are, or that they probably would never see the post nor be of the belief that their reputations would be defamed by the ramblings of the CEO of JVAB in some (relative) backwater web forum. Or, as some have suggested, that having JVL go off on you is some sort of badge of honor. (No 'u' in 'hounour' since it was was an US resident that made that comment)

All they see is someone being potentially libeled and identified by name so they'll duck and cover.

Yeah they probably don't know who Richards is, and still less where he got his idea to make untold millions not making WRC Subarus, but by "merely controlling Worldwide TV rights", and how that power and the same poor logic that his imitator used, led not to "the Big Time" but a farcical situation which virtually everybody agrees is a low ebb for the WRC series. (cf Todt intention to return rally at least towards some tradional elements, like night and distance and deeper fields.)
Better to wipe out anything they don't understand and threaten than think.
Or ask.


Of course a mild descriptive could hardly be characterized by any honest person as "going off" on Richards and the horribly ironically misnamed pale imitation we were plagued with here...

Only in (Red States) America..

(How the fuck did those neo-fascists Corporative lackey authoritarians lay claim to what in every other country symbolizes "the blood of the People' and the party supposedly representing the people get saddled with the color associated with the Aristocracy ie blue-bloods?"winking smiley


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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2012 05:35PM by john vanlandingham.
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SgtRauksauff
Jorden
Senior Moderator
Location: Baraboo, Wisconsin, USA, Terra, Sol, Milky Way
Join Date: 01/24/2006
Posts: 372

Rally Car:
whichever one i happen to be driving at the time
SgtRauksauff
Re: 3 weeks and 25 posts to get to...
August 20, 2012 02:24PM
I was thinking the "...misnamed..." referring to Spitzner was more of an oral sex joke....


---** To be in compliance with the Anarchy **---
Jorden R. Kleier
Baraboo, Wisconsin, USA
1990 Mazdog Protege 4WD
1973
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