Let's get political. Gun Debate!

Context is everything. You are so unwavering opposed to guns it makes me wonder...

Who did you know/were close too who was shot?

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Timmy first I say a person can have a conclusion---about anything and with that opinion and a buck they can ride the bus.
But when somebody gives "reasons" or "rationalisations", and scream "that's why I......' then those reasons and rationalisations are ripe for examination....

The point is that many many near illiterate people scream about "It's my right cause it says I haz the right to keep and bear arms, it was the founders intention that the Gubbymint should be afraid of an armed populace"

Then we can read their words, their then current meaning, their clearly stated intentions and, frankly, simple well argued, well crafted English.

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State".....

One must simply read and see what they meant by "well regulated", by Militia and State....

Subject verb auxiliary clause
and of course "The People"....

Every word was debated, discussed and worked out...

Wasn't a big rush to go watch Vimeo or Mannix re-runs, they had stated their lives and livlihood---and all had suffered even in victory (GNP or whatever you want to call it has sunk compared to Pre-Revolution by 1790 by at least 20%---people were poorer even 10 years after the end of the Revolution from the loss of trade with Britain, especially in the South)
so they though really carefully....

They didn't say "a person" as they did in say the 4th and 5th, they said "The People"... Huge difference in intention.

So if somebody wants to say "I want my guns" I can't argue...

When they say "It was the intent of the founders that every schmuck, loser, moron, fraidy-cat-bordering on paranoid delusions and with delusions of grandeur or whatever has a right to virtually barely regulated amounts and types of weaponry", then they have made an error...

And when people make errors in the beginning of a process , the end result is usually, not surprisingly, flawed...

And the cost of that flawed rationalisation in this country is 10s of thousands of deaths, gawd knows how many wounded...


And by seeing--all it takes is 8-10 minutes reading---what the intents WERE, and reflecting for a moment that most everything they originally intended has been discarded and /or ignored, then its clear there is nothing sacred to fight about in one half of a sentence.

We have a Standing Army, we have city, county and State Police, we have the state administered National Guard, all of those are armed to the teeth..
The very things they positioned as the worse thing possible and wish to avoid with a well regulated Militia consisting of people about 4 times richer than average....the only people that would get to vote in their original vision...

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

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John,
I realise you have a powdered wig and fluffy shirt in the closet but that doesn't mean your interpretation of what was spoken or written 200 or 400 years ago trumps a sitting judge today.

You really think that laws are written in stone? People (or persons) have some mystical wisdom or rights that allows them to make decisions for people centuries in advance? Not likely. Those brilliantly educated people you seem to hold in such high regard kept slaves, beat women, died of the most minor infections, had perfumed hankies on their sleeves because people stank so bad , probably couldn't pass a 3rd grade math test and would have shit themselves upon seeing a video on a cell phone (right before they burned the owner for being a witch).

I'm betting they never considered anybody not having a gun and their biggest fears were from repeating the offenses of European governments.

Gene, I know English and many of its dialects and archaic ones well back past the 1500s better than about 99% of native speakers. I know those old dialects because i know the etymology of our vocabulary, and I know they main languages where we received the words, and can read them in their earlier forms...
And know where those languages got their vocabulary from..

But before you get too wound up again, I am not the one suggesting that meaning and usage never changes or that the Founders were inerrant.
The were the priveledge upper class, and thus not my class...
Their intent is explained very clearly---if one devotes some time to reading what they themselves said their intents were..
It is the ill educated of today who insist on their Right to bear arms--and who gleefully--and stupidly----ignore the words.
THEY say "It's carved in stone, I can haz my guns!!!!!!"

I say, "well we changed virtually everything else the country started with and WE, the vast majority of the people have it far better because we have BROADENED the interpretation of the founders.
For example, I get to vote...
That was not THEIR intention that I should have a vote.
Wimmins can vote.
My black friends can vote and be counted as "full men".
Even little Timmy can vote..
And surely they never intended that!

I have posted repeatedly the beginning of the 2nd.
Have you rally slowed down and looked at those word I keep posting and lifted the finger to examine what they said they intended?

We write and write but it seems nobody reads any links posted because there is never a reference to the words in the links. Just personal "feelings"
Why?
Well with that and a buck you too can ride the bus.

And remember Judges are not always right in their decisions, that's why we have the Appellate System and a further level above that..

Oh and aside from stoopid cars and machine work and a few restaurant gigs, the only other work I have ever done was in Law.
Because of my reading and comprehension evident after a talk with the law firm I worked at. Not any degree.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Not at all getting wound up, this is for the most part a great discussion. With your extraordinary comprehension skills that should be obvious....I'm not sure your intrepretation is correct. We'll disagree on some things. But on others not so much.

There were founding principals of this country and individual freedom was a big idea. History has shown that idea to be pretty rare even in this country at times. I believe the right to keep and bear arms even translated into todays language doesn't have to include assault rifles (and I have one) or sawed off shotguns. Civilzation exists only because of compromise. I think the founding fathers fully expected people to own firearms. They were a part of everyday back then and for 100 years after. Can the 2nd ammendment be modified or tossed out? Maybe yes, maybe no. I think it will be more of a case of adapting it to reflect our times and what is considered by society as reasonable for the times. I'll be surprised if the AR and Ak platforms survive another year. I doubt they will be confiscated but banned as before (everyone somehow survived that). Registration could be required, with stiff penalties and forefiture if caught without. Transactions of certain firearms , or all firearms, could only be thru FFL dealers with a background check and a handling fee. We probably will see capacity restrictions or maybe even restrictions on the number of weapons in a residence. There are lots of ways to restrict gun ownership and yet preserve the intent (whatever that is/was) of the 2nd, including your mention of muzzle loaders.

I was actually going to trade the AR off for a Ruger before the school shooting. We've had it several years and never put a round thru it. Silly. Now the value has increased and I still don't care to have it so I'll wait a bit longer and sell it .

OK, so to bring us together (we'll never agree):
1/ The original intent in the constitution is up for some interpretation, and we can all agree that times have changed in ways impossible to forsee. This can be an argument for or against gun control.
2/ We have problems in our society that go WAY beyond too many guns. In fact, you're typical 'NRA fanatic' isn't the one killing people in mass shootings, although too many of them talk tough and sound stupid. Even the citizens most against gun ownership know and agree that the confiscation and banning of all firearms would be a small bandaid covering a festering wound.
3/ MOST people would agree to sensible reductions in things like clip size and type of available weapons IF they felt that a MEANINGFUL difference could be made. Crazy Lanza would have gone to that school with or without an AR15, and probably killed just as many. A muzzle loader would have slowed him down though. The issue with most thinking gun rights advocates is that criminals will still have access to guns, but that non criminals will follow the rules and be left defensless. And we feel that have a right to that defense even if it isn't always effective or realistic.
4/ We ALL feel deeply for those tortured kids and their families, even though we know that in the grand scheme of things 27 is a small number.

And... Now for the grenade in the room... just for fun. Two people drink too much and hook up. A baby is made. He didn't ask to be made, but he exists. Are the same people wringing their hands over the killing of 20 innocent kids and calling for the banning of weapons wondering about the innocent lives lost by abortion? No one grieves for them, and they have no voice. But I know the general answer: The far left is for strong gun control, and they are by far pro-abortion for any reason.

Happy New Year!

But fetuses aren't people yet...


Anyhow, on muskets, what if the next killer pulls a Three Musketeers? Have 10 or so muskets, about 20 bottles of wine, and hangs out under some cover and shoots them, hands them to a porter to load, whilst grabbing the next one. You'd probably be able to get off quite a few shots per minute, depending on how fast your partner in crime could reload.

OR they could pull a pirate, and come in with 4 flintlock pistols. I mean.. A classroom is close range, and target dense... all four will hit SOMETHING.


There are so many what if's its fucking stupid to think any one particular thing is going to solve it. The only thing that WOULD solve it is screening people through out their life in maybe, 2-5 year check ups, for mental illnesses, and get them in some sort of treatment, whether its therapy, drugs, more sunshine, a slap in the face, mental numbness via John on the phone, support groups, whatever. If you catch the ones that are going to/are/have snapped... I think THAT would be the biggest difference.

And now everyone cries "whos going to pay for that"


:rolleyes:

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

I'll just leave this here, just cuz I am amazed at the source. A snip..


"These days, there are few few things to admire about the socialist, bankrupt and culturally degenerating USA, but at least so far, one thing remains: the right to bare arms and use deadly force to defend one's self and possessions.

For those of us fighting for our traditional rights, the US 2nd Amendment is a rare light in an ever darkening room. Governments will use the excuse of trying to protect the people from maniacs and crime, but are in reality, it is the bureaucrats protecting their power and position. In all cases where guns are banned, gun crime continues and often increases. As for maniacs, be it nuts with cars (NYC, Chapel Hill NC), swords (Japan), knives (China) or home made bombs (everywhere), insane people strike. They throw acid (Pakistan, UK), they throw fire bombs (France), they attack. What is worse, is, that the best way to stop a maniac is not psychology or jail or "talking to them", it is a bullet in the head, that is why they are a maniac, because they are incapable of living in reality or stopping themselves."

The rest of this is, um, here, at, ahhh, Pravda...http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/28-12-2012/123335-americans_guns-0/


How's that quote go, you know the world is crazy when the best rapper is white, the best golfer is black, the french think the US are arrogant and the germans don't wanna go to war and PRAVDA publishes someone talking up the 2nd amendment??? You couldn't surprise me more if the head of the Fed reserve or the SEC came out calling for jail for all Wall street crooks. WTF. What next? An announcement from the Vatican that childmolesting priests are all now summarily excommunicated, and a fatwa comes outta Mecca saying the next bombthrowing islamic thug will *not* get his 72 virgins but instead gets on the express lane to hell?
happy crazy damn new year, y'all.

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Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

Jay for President ....

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heymagic
Jay for President ....

Seconded.

in 2011, its interesting that there were 323 murders involving a rifle in the us, but 496 with hammers/clubs. I dont feel like adding up the numbers for stabbing weapons.

obviously it doesn't include shotguns (356). handguns however, accounted for 7,565. The point is, the hoopla over high capacity magazines and the other assault weapon restrictions are barking up the wrong alley.

for 2011 in Idaho, the same number of people were killed with firearms of any sort, as were murdered with something else.


http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-20




http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/01/03/fbi-hammers-clubs-kill-more-people-than-rifles-shotguns/

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I don't have the link but the number of reported mental illness' reported to the Feds is terribly small although it is getting better. Several of the recent mass shooters had previous probems that would have caused them to fail a back ground check if properly reported. I think it is in here http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/maig_mimeo_revb.pdf

We are on a very slippery slope regarding banning guns, labeling the mentally ill, etc. Who defines who is mentally ill? Not long ago homosexuality was listed as a mental illness, but has been removed from that category.

On the surface the laws that state a convicted felon cannot ever own a gun seem logical, but why is a truly "reformed" human not allowed to protect themselves?

Legalization of drones flying over the United States (spying on all citizens) is over the top.

I am glad I don't have children. I fear greatly for the children of the people reading this. Privacy is almost gone. Corporate control of individualism is taking over.

Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" is here and growing.

I'm approaching 60, and have heart disease. I could die now while writing this or 20 years from now, but my time is limited.

You younger folks really need to act SOON!!! Gun grabbing is only the beginning. Next big brother will be telling you what socks you can wear, what you MUST eat, what you MUST think, what you MUST do, what you MUST feel.

Our fathers and grandfathers fought WWII to stop this sort of tyranny.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2013 09:03AM by Jens.

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Gravity Fed
in 2011, its interesting that there were 323 murders involving a rifle in the us, but 496 with hammers/clubs. I dont feel like adding up the numbers for stabbing weapons.

The trouble with statistics is you can make them say just about anything you want.
Percentages are more telling than raw numbers. The percentage I'm interested in would be the percentage of the number of items total that were used in murders.
What percentage of murders with a rifle over the number of rifles in the US compared to the number of murders with a hammer over the number of hammers in the US. At least this would speak to the availability of the two items.

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Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Well statistically

http://www.examiner.com/article/wild-dogs-kill-4-feral-dogs-kill-and-leave-a-horrific-scene-park-report

100% of the people killed by these wild dogs are dead. Maybe Jens is correct about needing hi-cap clips.