Insulating Steel Buildings

Okay, so this is our building...



It is hotter than a devil's fart in the summer. Like don't bother during the day hot. Dave and I used a lazer temp thing and recorded 142 surface temperature on the steel this past summer.
It is colder than a witch's cunt in winter. Running a diesel jet heater and the roof mounted natural gas one we can get the interior temp up to 50s though that's air temp. The cement floor radiates freezing cold air and you can actually feel the cold through your shoes.
This causes problems with welding as it's so cold right now and we have to preheat tubing and it costs us a shit ton to get the interior space up to temp.
So today I started looking at insulation options. We asked the landlord about it when we first moved in and he said it cost more to insulate than the building is worth. I think he's overpricing the cost to insulate.
Anyhow, anyone have any experience insulating a quonset hut style steel building? I was looking at maybe something like this.
http://www.insulation4less.com/Insulation4lessTechnicalArticles-93-Quonset-Hut-Insulation.aspx

Our building is about 60 feet depth and 40 foot wide. So I figure this would probably be in the $2500-3000 range and we could probably install it ourselves. Am going to talk to landlord soon about it and thought I'd get some feedback from here where someone might have had experience with this kinda stuff or maybe some alternatives.

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Grant Hughes

I am highly skeptical of the claim of R-16 for a 5mm polyethylene foam sandwiched by radiant barriers....

Closed cell foam has an R-value of about 6.7 per inch thickness.

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One. Class -- 2WD

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All the Quonset hut buildings that I worked in on the North Slope had spray foam insulation. It wasn't too bad until it got below-30 outside. Spray foam is flamable so you need to be carefulwelding and grinding.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Fair amount of complaints on that company and then a primer on phony insulation. http://www.healthyheating.com/Page%2055/Page_55_o_bldg_sys.htm

Might want to read.

I have the crappy old pole building blanket insulation in mine. R3 I think it is. With my old electric heater it was warm but expensive. I just installed a massive propane over head heater (Reznor) and wow does it stay nice now.

Quote
heymagic
Fair amount of complaints on that company and then a primer on phony insulation. http://www.healthyheating.com/Page%2055/Page_55_o_bldg_sys.htm

Might want to read.

I have the crappy old pole building blanket insulation in mine. R3 I think it is. With my old electric heater it was warm but expensive. I just installed a massive propane over head heater (Reznor) and wow does it stay nice now.

Yeah he might wanna read on heat transfer, too. the old convection , conduction and radiation then ponder how cold "radiates" cold....

Just poking at ya Grant. My garage is "ambient" temp and 35 years ago I din't give a hoot about 32F, but now gawddamn, I gotta bundle up like Michelin man to stand and fab shit...

And tomorrow I have to go and (try) standing (if the gawddam hairline fractured leg allows) and work on this alternator mount thing to replace the on that somebody thought they were smarter than me and revised so well the alternator hits the manifold hard, the belt run is useless and therefore the mount is a terrible sorry shit fab.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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It is minus 2 out right now. I am betweennot working at 9 or going up to the shop to fire up heater now. Not that that will keep the floor from being frozen and sucking off all the heat radiated below waistline.
I was skeptical about the reported r value.
Spray foam is more than the building is worth. Is it worth a tenant is bigger question...

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Grant Hughes

Won't be much use in summer but do you really need the entire building heated in winter?
Is there no way a smaller temporary booth made out of sectional panels could be constructed that would create a far easier heated space you could work in when the weather gets too cold. Bit like a spray booth sort of deal.

There are quite a few companies over here that deal in large secondhand insulated profiled steel sheets that have been removed from buildings getting taken down. Might be worth a search to see if there is similar near you. You could always sell them on if you move premises. Or knock up some wooden stud work and panel it possibly with rockwool insulation sandwiched in between.

Any type of shading will help reduce temps in summer but that does not look like an easy options due to the size of the shed. A large door or opening at each end of the shed to let the air flow through possibly with fan assistance may help in summer.

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Disappointingly not yet a Jackass

There are lots of ways to do it. Something like this http://www.raycore.com/insulated-wall-panels.php?gclid=COTlyt_q5bQCFUdxQgodMEYA6g or a version of. Even if you did just the ceiling area for now or build a room as Dan suggested.

I doubt you can do much about a cement floor really. Get some stress relief mats for where you are standing.

Cheap ceiling fans are really awesome for getting the heat back down where you need it and should make a huge difference . Grab a step ladder and climb it and you likely will feel the difference as move up every rung. Get that wasted heat back down where you are working.

I also have a couple of radiant 110v heaters that we use in unheated areas of the buildings. They are cheap to run and work well. Have to get the brand name off them. They had them at the hardware store several years ago and have an adjustable bracket for either floor or wall mount.

I agree with Gene. Circulate the air. It doesn't matter if the insulation is more that the building is worth. What will the building be worth with the insulation? Any floor covering would be a huge improvement. Junk carpet, rubber tiles, etc. The problem is with the welding. I have worked on conveyor belt strips and it was pretty good. Find a local gravel/crushing operation. They will have lots of old 3ft wide belting. As long as the welding sparks don't get between the strips you will be ok. You will be amazed at the improvement in your work life.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

The back section of our building is a quonset hut 40x120 with 20' seelings. We were heating it with 2 salamanders and if you werent 4 foot from it you froze. I paid 9k to have the hole thing spray foamed 1 1/2" thick. Now we keep it 62 with fans all winter with my largest gas bill of $325.00 average of $180 a month . We have 2 100,000 btu hanging units. If he says the structure is not worth it he will change his mind after spray foam. It makes the building sooper strong and air tight. I was affraid to walk on the roof fixing leaks and now I would drive a truck over it.

The summer if you keep the doors closed your good to about 3 in the after noon then it gets pretty worm but still way way better then when it was just steel. well worth the money if you plan on staying there.

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A place where I worked did the spray insulation thing on all of the buildings in the company.

A side benefit was what it did to quiet the place down. I wouldn't have believed how loud it used to be until after the insulation was applied.

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

How big is the front garage door? I just watched someone who is renting a hangar at the local airport (no insulation, no man cave like the rest of the ones I've seen) basically upscale a fishouse design where the walls come apart and stack on one another for storage. No wall was bigger than the 1/2 door he gets to use. Maybe you could build one big enough to house a car, a welder, a few people and a kero or propane portable heater?

That way if you ever leave the space, your not out the cost of insulation, as its on your portable garage/icefishing mansion.

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Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

Your landlord is unlikely to pony up any money for lease hold improvements since you've already signed the lease (or agreement). Lease hold improvements are good negotiating points prior to possession. That said, it's not impossible to get improvements paid for (partially or fully) if your landlord sees long term value in the improvements. If for example you supplied the labour and he the materials. Any work that you do could allow him to get a higher lease in the future from another tenant. Another way is that you agree to a longer lease as a contingency of him paying for the improvements now.

It doesn't sound like theres a thermal break in the slab.

Have you thought about creating an insulated space within the building itself? You could have an insulated work area and a non insulated storage space. The radius of the roof is problematic because of the nature of building materials.

You could identify an area of the minimum you need (square footage wise). Put down ridgid styrofoam on the floor with a tegular edge so they interlock. Then sheet the floor with plywood or pour a concrete slab. This will look after the cold floor and help increase the ambient interior temperature. You could leave at this because a thermal break in the floor will make a huge difference.

Or simply add a 2X4 stud walls, insulate the stud cavities with R12. Joist the ceiling, use attic insulation and depending on what you'll put up there / use it for will determind the joist dimension. Then sheet the walls/ceiling with drywall. No need to finish it beyond level 1

Alternatively don't tape the drywall and screw everything together and sell the building materials when you move one day.

This would create non insulated storage space down the sides and on top.

You could build it small to begin with and add to is as you need or can afford. Run a few 1500W baseboard heaters through a thermostat . Running the wire withing the walls before you insulate using a standard Lumex 14/2 wire (cheap).

We sometimes do jobs in areas where I can't crane in a temprorary construction storage and office space so it's easy to build. We have a tent that's 12' X 40" with a vaulted roof ranging from 96" to 84" and it gets nice and hot with 2 - 48" (1500W) 1 -24" (750W) heater. The interior walls and ceiling are R12 with vapour barrier on top (on the inside), while the outside is wrapped in tarps. It's elevated off the ground due to the grade and we have 2" ridgid insulation with plywood on either side for the floor. The structure is framed on a 2X4 wall running lengthwise on either side of the structure, the joisted between.

Pretty economical to heat 480 Square feet.

The point is, you could adopt this idea/design to suit your needs (add drywall for a fire rating since you're welding. We always run teck cable because he feed is always outside. You could just with with BX from your panel to a JB in the new walls and then wire the rest with Lumex. Alternatively set up a sub panel for the new space.

Other times I rent a cargo container that comes with spray insulated foam on the walls and ceiling (you'd have to friction fit a 2x4 wall and board it with drywall for welding). They have baseboard heat preinstalled, and I just run a cord to them. The truck comes, cranes it into place and I have an insulated work/storage space with heat for just over $250 per month rent with and 320 square feet.

If you couldn't find a container company that rents these in your area, you could buy a couple of containers and modify them to rent out yourself. You have the yard space for it and there's a pretty descent demand from contractors, builders, etc looking for secure temporary storage.

If they're not big enough for a welding area, you could put 2 side by side, cut the sides and needed and connect them for an external shop space in your yard.

Theres a few options to consider beyond costly spray insulation on your landlords building.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2013 10:57AM by RWD4ME.

Morten,

I like your posts when they are this informative and constructive.

I have worked in several "container shops" and they are pretty good.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.