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Revised Open class

Posted by NoCoast 
NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Revised Open class
November 14, 2007 08:21PM
So I keep having thoughts about a revised Open class. Here's the logic.

We basically have two levels in Open class right now. We have the top guys, sponsored, trust funders, or independently fairly wealthy. They have some pretty amazing spec cars and the ability to beat the fuck out of them and not worry too much about it as long as they don't totally destroy too many cars a year. Then we have to regular people. They are typically in Subarus or Evos that are nearly stock, with just a few modifications for a bit more power, reliability, or grip. My idea is to basically create a new Open class that isn't really open because of restrictions.
No active center differential
No antilag
No dog engagement gearboxes
Limit diameter and thickness of brake rotors
No larger than 55 mm suspension
Stock suspension components (control arms, crossmember, etc.) (Can update or backdate to use from different car, but no Prodrive or other such aftermarket suspension components)

Look at Tall Pines. There are 23 cars in Open class. How many of them can realistically, in the theoretical situation that no one DNFs, can place in the top 5? I've seen this similar situation at nearly every event.

Anyhow, just thought I'd put it out there and see if anyone else considered it a valid thought. It really doesn't affect me currently as I have no aspirations to build a car to compete in a class that I don't forsee myself ever having the expendable income to ever compete to win in. That's part of why I chose Group 5. With my budget I can realistically build a car capable of competing at a level which could win, even with a line up like LSPR had.



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fiasco
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Re: Revised Open class
November 14, 2007 09:27PM
I think for rally, which allegedly runs "street legal" cars, you ought to be REQUIRED to fill the tank with whatever piss passes for super unleaded at the local 7-11 pumps! Randy Zimmer sure as hell can pedal that 2.5 RS on whatever gas is on sale that week in Buffalo. Street gas would also reduce the need for restrictors. This would of course favor only those running mild spec turbos in G5 and PGT cars. Those running a lot of NA compression and a crapload of cam would have problems w/o going to 100 octane.

And put some real mileage back into events with some interesting service restrictions, so it's not about who can afford to put 3 sets of $12,000 suspension and two $20,000 gearboxes at each event. Was it JV who once posited making the Ford Country Squire station wagon the maximum sized service vehicle? That's a bit extreme, and having serviced out of a POS box van, there is something very nice about having some cover you can stand up and move around in when it's raining or cold. But the multiple Mitsu Fuso 25,999 GVW trucks and the 48' triple axle trailers are a little ridiculous.

Rally used to be about a balance of keeping the car together and speed, now it's all attack all the time. That has its place, but it's turned the sport into a money spending contest.

Then again, if I was a trustafarian, I'd be doing almost exactly what some of the others are doing.

OK, I could get another beer and start my Rally Manifesto, but I think I'll stop for now.



Andrew Steere
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dtompsett
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would love to see...
November 15, 2007 08:28AM
I would love to see a class similar to group2/5 for AWD cars... The Audi I'm building, just moving the battery to the trunk has put me in open class. A 20vt swap, running stock components and a restrictor (ie... OE fuel management... not properly tuned for the restrictor), will still be less powerful than a stock WRX that can run in P4. I don't have money for a big turbo, standalone fuel/spark, race gas, etc.

Atleast in 2008, my '88 90q will fall into the classic division rules.
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Re: would love to see...
November 15, 2007 09:44AM
Group 2/5 essentially IS the same as open, just for 2wd. Just nobody builds 2wd cars to the "pointy end of the stick" (with the possible exceptions of Lurch and maybe Sarasin, although I haven't looked at either of these up close), because all the "fame and glory" is in AWD, and if you're gonna blow a bazillion dollars on a car, it may as well be a Subabishi and not some pedestrian Golf or something.

OK, there was something else I was going to say here, but I already forgot.



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NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Re: would love to see...
November 15, 2007 12:48PM
But even though Eric's Mazda is maybe a $150,000, it doesn't walk away from the competitors in 2WD. That's one of the beauties of 2WD. Even Fuller's kit car Golf from Europe still fought battles with a Volvo before both cars were totalled.

Doug is another example of what a low spec Open AWD class could afford.



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Dazed_Driver
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Re: would love to see...
November 20, 2007 02:49PM
fiasco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Group 2/5 essentially IS the same as open, just
> for 2wd. Just nobody builds 2wd cars to the
> "pointy end of the stick" (with the possible
> exceptions of Lurch and maybe Sarasin, although I
> haven't looked at either of these up close),
> because all the "fame and glory" is in AWD, and if
> you're gonna blow a bazillion dollars on a car, it
> may as well be a Subabishi and not some pedestrian
> Golf or something.
>
> OK, there was something else I was going to say
> here, but I already forgot.
>
> Andrew Steere, 1973
> Lyndeborough, NH
> KB1PJY


I'm building my *Corolla* [note, 2wd, ugly toyota car.] to the "pointy end of the stick." But I'm (Caution, Blasphemy) also not building it as a dedicated RALLY car. Its just a race car. I'll rally it, drift it, track day it (is that a phrase?) and do what ever the hell else I want with it.

And as to limiting fuel octane. Hell no. I'm 12:1 compression and crazy cam NA. Dont do that.

Timm.



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Pete
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Re: Revised Open class
December 01, 2007 09:49PM
WTF is wit hthe fuel limitation?

100 octane is not difficult to find. Hell, when I drive out to BF Nowhere Ohio I can find at least one pump every 75 miles with 100 octane gasoline. E85 stations are popping up everywhere too, they're not as common as in, say, Indiana (where the ground is pancake-flat but there are 500 E35 stations and counting) but it's 100+ octane for $2.30 a gallon. And a very large percentage of new cars can run the stuff. Okay, where's Jens?




Pete Remner
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1978
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fiasco
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Re: Revised Open class
December 01, 2007 11:05PM
The fuel limitation is a plank of my beer-fueled "get rid of (or reduce need for) restrictors" and spending your way around them with engine management rant. Some 92 octane 7-11 gas could be a way to reduce speed now done with restrictors.

Like I said, beer-fueled rant.

I'd also like to see a return to Group A / N based WRC cars, for two reasons: 1) access to cool "homologation special" machinery for the street and 2) Joey shade tree rally dude could build 7/8 of a works car for 1/4 the budget.

And the ethanol, ugh. I can tell the E10 is out, both my Subies fuel economy has dropped by 2 to 4 mpg in the past two months. Funny thing is, these oxygenates in the fuel are meant to fool carburetors into burning leaner and cleaner, they just seem to make oxygen sensor equipped cars eat more fuel to keep at stoich mixture.

What was this topic about again? =)





Andrew Steere
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Re: Revised Open class
December 02, 2007 07:10PM
jeaaaazus Andrew. Just how many Hampshire Special Ales have you had? Or are you into the Dogfish Head stuff?

I am for adding stage miles where ever possible. Reality is making that harder and harder to do. I know you guys (or some namby-pamby) will HATE me for saying it, but "Pro" rally, while I love it, isn't as much fun to me as fast TSD's. At least, the ones I've run in this nape of the neck. Sanctioned or Outlaw, doesn't make any difference to me. As long as the time allowances are frowned upon and the speeds are high, I'm in.

KB1PPH out.



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Re: Revised Open class
December 02, 2007 09:01PM
I dont get why they dont try to find twistier more technical roads? Are they just not around here?



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fiasco
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Re: Revised Open class
December 02, 2007 09:58PM
Unfortunately, most rural roads in the US of A and Canada are made for GREAT BIG 26 WHEEL LOGGING TRUCKS, not Mk 2 Escorts. Unless you happen upon a path left over from the days of Model Ts or horses and buggies.




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john vanlandingham
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Re: Revised Open class
December 02, 2007 09:59PM
Rallyho Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jeaaaazus Andrew. Just how many Hampshire Special
> Ales have you had? Or are you into the Dogfish
> Head stuff?
>
> I am for adding stage miles where ever possible.
> Reality is making that harder and harder to do. I
> know you guys (or some namby-pamby) will HATE me
> for saying it, but "Pro" rally, while I love it,
> isn't as much fun to me as fast TSD's. At least,
> the ones I've run in this nape of the neck.
> Sanctioned or Outlaw, doesn't make any difference
> to me. As long as the time allowances are frowned
> upon and the speeds are high, I'm in.

Noooooo way Mike, I ALWAYS stress to guys one of the beauties of those RWD-mobiles like the Xratty and Ovlovs Turdboats is the fact we can shove in in axles with about 4.3 or so and with the CRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAZY tall overdrives in BorgWarner T5s, we can fawkin RIPPP! in first thru 4th, have all the speed we want on any stage (7000 rpm in 4th with a 65cm gravel tire and a 4.4 would = 118 mph) and then grab .72 or .62 overdrive and go down the transits at like 2000 for 65----which means we can DRIVE to fun long distance events up in BC.

I say "DOoooooooodserz do the Thunderbird Rally!!! 2 full days in the car at 85% is a better workout and more fun than 90 minutes at 90% (cause I dunna know bouts youse guys but I always drive with a Beeeeeg fawkin margin.)

So if anybody gives ya sheet tell them to fawk off and if I sees 'em i'll tell 'em to fawk off too.
Dumb fawks.
>
> KB1PPH out.
>
> Rallyho
> Mike White






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Re: Revised Open class
December 02, 2007 10:20PM
Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I dont get why they dont try to find twistier more
> technical roads? Are they just not around here?
>
> Feisty Peacock?

They're around but often they don't connect anyswears so its harder to link 'em up to make a point to point route.
As important is WHO is doing rallys these days and in what sorta cars.

It seems the sport is now MOSTLY peopled with guys who a generation ago might have been blue collar working class jamokes but now they sit in cubicles all day.

Many make lots of money and the mentality now is a consumer mentality:
Buy! a car
Buy! some prep
Buy! a cage/belts/suspenders/pads
Buy! a "school"
Buy! a Licence
Buy! a 1200 entry
Buy! a co-driver (the amount of young guys flying around the country to play co-driver is really absurd---where does the money come from?)


Presto without any effort, aside from flashing plastic, you're a "Pro"

These guys don't want their expensive cars being run hard or run on rough roads, they whine and cry and pout and threaten to not come back.
You should have seen the stink a few years ago when the Arizona events had a few real rough stages. Assholes were giving the organiser, a nice guy named Bill Barfoot so much grief, he dropped out of the sport.

The extremely obnoxious "little league Dad" of some kid in his 4th or 5th event in his Evobitchi was saying "The top cars are going 4 times faster than the rest, they don't have time to brake for the (obvious) rocks and so the hit them and destroy their cars!!!"

Get the drift?
They're softies mostly, they want easy stuff.
One hours total time a day with a little transisting, easy wide smooth roads, no old school "start at 4 Pm and go to 9 the next morning" stuff.

Claro?
Too many pussies.

( The meanest event in the country used to be "Press On Regardless", the WINNING time even into the early 90s was like 3 1/2 hours or more, now maybe 100 minutes)








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Re: Revised Open class
December 02, 2007 10:32PM
Thats lame.



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tedm
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Re: Revised Open class
December 06, 2007 02:37PM
Pump gas should be required in production class vehicles as well.
Because I'm a cheapskate,that's why!
;-)

Ted



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Re: Revised Open class
January 03, 2008 07:55AM
What about building cars for the NASA P2 class. This seems to be a good class for lower budget guy that wants to run an open AWD car. P2 is basically Open without turbos. No restrictors, No need for exotic transmissions.

The guys with money are still going to build a tubro car to run at the front. But as mentioned earlier Zimmer has shown that you can be fast in a NA impreza. Why not an NA EVO or a NA Audi 90q
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Robin Fleguel
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Re: Revised Open class
February 21, 2008 10:36AM
tedm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pump gas should be required in production class
> vehicles as well.
> Because I'm a cheapskate,that's why!
> ;-)
>
> Ted

Totally agree - Ted is a cheapskate.

As far as "where are the twisty technical roads?"... Try Black Bear in June. Ask anyone who's run it - and anyone who has run Old Hastings or The Peanut at Pines, Powderface at Rocky, most of the Saturday roads at Defi (whoops, that tarmac L4/Cr should've been !L3-/Jmp landing zone in opposite ditch/trees...I erased the in-car cause I didn't want anyone to hear me scream like a school girl)

We have them up here..?

Robin



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randyzimmer
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Re: Revised Open class
February 21, 2008 05:22PM
Eschew turbos!
Reject boring events!
Come rally in twistyville, the North East (in P2)!
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Easy - NA 2WD
February 25, 2008 03:27PM
There you go - Normally aspirated two wheel drive. Best open class in the world.

(Sorry Randy Z, but you'd run it too, although WV 2007 was not a success).

Wilson



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randyzimmer
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Re: Easy - NA 2WD
February 25, 2008 07:42PM
wvonkessler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> (Sorry Randy Z, but you'd run it too, although WV
> 2007 was not a success).
>

You're right, it wasn't!
No, you're wrong, I wouldn't!
I'm all for 4wd, sorry.
Believe it or not, its cheaper.
and I like how it drives too.
Just ban the damn turbos, they suck money in so many ways.


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Jay
Re: Revised Open class
February 25, 2008 08:33PM
I'd be perfectly happy with turbo swd open class no restrictor, required to run 92 pump gas. You can go plenty fast on that formula without spending the bank. Trying to make a car go fast on a 34mm resrictor requires, I'm finding, either dangeroous commitment or stupid money.



Jay Woodward
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Chronologically, 46...
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Revised Open class
February 25, 2008 08:44PM
Jay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd be perfectly happy with turbo swd open class
> no restrictor, required to run 92 pump gas. You
> can go plenty fast on that formula without
> spending the bank. Trying to make a car go fast on
> a 34mm resrictor requires, I'm finding, either
> dangeroous commitment or stupid money.
>
> Jay Woodward
> Snohomish, WA
> '90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
> Chronologically, 40...

Group 5 is still restrictor free, trannies cost in the hundreds, cars have bigger less stressed engines and they CAN kick ass






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