Fiestas are brilliant.....

Pass request would be very nice.. I've been stuck behind a car that wouldn't pull over (for about 6 miles) next time i'll bump him lol

If we can't own the devices, then we will be on the hook to always rent them... and eventually the price will go up

and i also think its A-OK to do things differently for national events and regional. Rally is unique in that the same event is both the "pro" series and the club level event. so maybe this will become a mandatory item for national entries (Canada and US) and optional for club level event (that is in support of a national) and just flat out not available at club level events not tied to a national.

It does sound like "they" aka CARS is doing it right. research first , feed back, then decide. but i hope they put a ton of weight on feedback as far as costs are concern (to both organizer and competitor)


so does anyone know how much to Rent a device for an event ?

Quote
A1337STI
If we can't own the devices, then we will be on the hook to always rent them... and eventually the price will go up

Owning means massive capital outlay and being tied to a provider until the units are 'written down,' regardless of how much the 'service' costs change.
Renting/Leasing means if it doesn't work, you walk away. If the costs balloon, you walk away, teh equipment is managed by the owners, including firmware and hardware updates.
In this case, owning doesn't make sense - from what I've seen.

Quote
A1337STI
It does sound like "they" aka CARS is doing it right. research first , feed back, then decide. but i hope they put a ton of weight on feedback as far as costs are concern (to both organizer and competitor)

Already have. We know most will accept $50 or less, although a small number will grumble. We know that many are OK at $100, and others would be willing to pay much higher. It could be that it is a tiered pricing with higher seeds paying more and getting more. But... this is still all being looked at.

Quote
A1337STI
So does anyone know how much to Rent a device for an event ?

Nope. Even the good folks at RallySafe are looking at the costs of providing services 'in far away places.' Normally, they send two staff to events at a minimum, and that won't work in Canada. The cost of rental would then also need the cost of logistics and 'staffing' (volunteer or otherwise) added on. We've got ballpark numbers... but they are guesses at best.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

I love the features for sure. Just not the added expense.
Same applies to recce.
I could afford to do a National Championship. I can't afford the amount of time. I'd wager this is a sentiment shared by many self employed/business owners. It'd be interesting to look at the primary income source for national competitors historically.
The 12 hour endurance race we did in September I could have waited until Saturday morning to show up for the first time.

---

Grant Hughes

Quote
NoCoast
I love the features for sure. Just not the added expense.
Same applies to recce.
I could afford to do a National Championship. I can't afford the amount of time. I'd wager this is a sentiment shared by many self employed/business owners. It'd be interesting to look at the primary income source for national competitors historically.
The 12 hour endurance race we did in September I could have waited until Saturday morning to show up for the first time.

Technically you could've waited even longer. If we're going out for 2 hour stints and you're driving 3rd, and you boneheads insist on putting Dave in the car first...

Quote
Morison
If it really were not considered, we'd be in our second year of running Rally Safe in Canada.

If people get beat over the head with it long enough, they usually will cave eventually. The problem I have is when I asked if there was a "no, we are not going rallysafe, and we will not revisit it for an extensive period of time" I was basically told "this is happening whether you like it or not". So it isn't really considered, because as you stated, the concensous was heard loud and clear as NO from the competitors themselves. And yet still CARS has spent 2 years chasing this over a forgone conclusion: rallysafe is probably the best system on the market for many different reasons/criteria, and the majority isn't willing to pay for it.

My concern, as I have continously voiced, is once this becomes a cost, there is no going back. It is a system we will always have to run and pay for (or another system like it) whether sponsored or not. We can't go backwards on safety... I haven't actually quite figured out why yet, but it is what it is.

I agree on the 'no going back' sentiment. The lawyers would have a field day first incident.

Quote
HiTempguy

Quote
Morison
If it really were not considered, we'd be in our second year of running Rally Safe in Canada.

If people get beat over the head with it long enough, they usually will cave eventually. The problem I have is when I asked if there was a "no, we are not going rallysafe, and we will not revisit it for an extensive period of time" I was basically told "this is happening whether you like it or not". So it isn't really considered, because as you stated, the concensous was heard loud and clear as NO from the competitors themselves. And yet still CARS has spent 2 years chasing this over a forgone conclusion: rallysafe is probably the best system on the market for many different reasons/criteria, and the majority isn't willing to pay for it.

My concern, as I have continously voiced, is once this becomes a cost, there is no going back. It is a system we will always have to run and pay for (or another system like it) whether sponsored or not. We can't go backwards on safety... I haven't actually quite figured out why yet, but it is what it is.

Hey Adam, what you are describing is the way things have always been done down here. And lately, from what we down here can see, now up there..
Some guy gets some some "pet-idea" and convinces somebody in some (volunteer---but not necessarily qualified capacity) position, it gets discussed among an unknown coterie, a proposal is drafted and basically decided on, and then they go out and say "we're thinking about______________ and are soliciting input"....

When the desired course is already chosen---based on some guys behind the scenes lobbying of his pet-idea..

The key words are "we can't say who we talked with but they're experts in " oh unknown people but we're supposed to trust that their advice is not slanted and the decision (already drafted) isn't going to be a plum pitched to one guy.......and the cost spread to every entry...


Plenty of other things CARS and the Clubs should be fretting about like RECRUITMENT AND RETENTION...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
HiTempguy

Quote
Morison
If it really were not considered, we'd be in our second year of running Rally Safe in Canada.

If people get beat over the head with it long enough, they usually will cave eventually. The problem I have is when I asked if there was a "no, we are not going rallysafe, and we will not revisit it for an extensive period of time" I was basically told "this is happening whether you like it or not". So it isn't really considered, because as you stated, the concensous was heard loud and clear as NO from the competitors themselves. And yet still CARS has spent 2 years chasing this over a forgone conclusion: rallysafe is probably the best system on the market for many different reasons/criteria, and the majority isn't willing to pay for it.

My concern, as I have continously voiced, is once this becomes a cost, there is no going back. It is a system we will always have to run and pay for (or another system like it) whether sponsored or not. We can't go backwards on safety... I haven't actually quite figured out why yet, but it is what it is.

Hey Adam, what you are describing is the way things have always been done down here. And lately, from what we down here can see, now up there..
Some guy gets some some "pet-idea" and convinces somebody in some (volunteer---but not necessarily qualified capacity) position, it gets discussed among an unknown coterie, a proposal is drafted and basically decided on, and then they go out and say "we're thinking about______________ and are soliciting input"....

When the desired course is already chosen---based on some guys behind the scenes lobbying of his pet-idea..

The key words are "we can't say who we talked with but they're experts in " oh unknown people but we're supposed to trust that their advice is not slanted and the decision (already drafted) isn't going to be a plum pitched to one guy.......and the cost spread to every entry...

And flying bodies around because there's only one person in the whole world capable of ___________ , which is utter bullshit, I think drives a lot of the cost increases for event organisers.


Plenty of other things CARS and the Clubs should be fretting about like RECRUITMENT AND RETENTION...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2014 01:58AM by john vanlandingham.

Quote
HiTempguy
So it isn't really considered, because as you stated, the concensous was heard loud and clear as NO from the competitors themselves. And yet still CARS has spent 2 years chasing this over a forgone conclusion: rallysafe is probably the best system on the market for many different reasons/criteria, and the majority isn't willing to pay for it.

It was a loud and clear 'not at that price.' Few opposed the idea of the system if it didn't cost. Two years has been spent looking at alternatives, looking at logistics, and - to a large degree - walking away from the system until pricing can be sorted out. This test at Rocky came from the initiative of a competitor, primarily, and the event organizers. Big White was trying to get the system for use as well, with no added cost to the competitor.

Quote
HiTempguy
My concern, as I have continously voiced, is once this becomes a cost, there is no going back. It is a system we will always have to run and pay for (or another system like it) whether sponsored or not. We can't go backwards on safety... I haven't actually quite figured out why yet, but it is what it is.

This is a concern we share...

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison
Few opposed the idea of the system if it didn't cost.

Extensive polling revealed people like free stuff?

I can only guess that the followup survey showed that the organizers liked it if "they didn't have to do anything and it didn't take more people".

I too enjoy free stuff, and I like it even more if I don't have to do anything.

There's LOADS of stuff I would do if it didn't cost anything, or if "somebody else" just payed for it. But you're telling me you've been studying the issue for two years and it's failed a cost/benefit analysis all that time? If that's the case, what is there to 'test'? Even if it works perfectly to spec... that's the feature set that has already been found to be failing the cost/benefit test the last two years. I don't get it.

Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Quote
Anders Green
I don't get it.

That's OK... you don't have to.

The reality is we've been looking at tracking and/or electronic triangles for over two years, not just RallySafe. We've looked at cost/benefit as well as practicality and functionality for a range of systems, from GlobalStar Spot trackers to APRS trackers, to GSM trackers, to home-build trackers and/or car to car beacons.

Every now and then it simmers down, moves to a back burner, and then something happens to make it a hot topic again. Presently, it was an ex-Pat Australian who wanted to bring the system to a Canadian event. In the summer, Gotleib's accident and the apparent failure of the 'normal system' there got us looking at it for Big White specifically, and more seriously again overall.

The issue is big enough that the board felt it deserved a closer look... It'd be easy to say 'costs too much, forget about it'... but I think it, and our competitors, deserve more than that. Right now, it's about fully understanding the cost (financial and effort) of using the system, and then we can really understand the cost/benifit balance AND look at ways we can bridge the gap on the cost side.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison
In the summer, Gotleib's accident and the apparent failure of the 'normal system' there got us looking at it for Big White specifically, and more seriously again overall.

License revokation and big fines could prevent that easier.

---

Grant Hughes

Quote
NoCoast

Quote
Morison
In the summer, Gotleib's accident and the apparent failure of the 'normal system' there got us looking at it for Big White specifically, and more seriously again overall.

License revokation and big fines could prevent that easier.

Sad thing is it won't.
CARS already has a $500 fine plus 10 minute penalty for violation of the safety protocols... which has been levied several times and we haven't seen a significant change in the culture because of it.
Revoking a license also demands an insanely high burden of proof - often difficult to have when the incident will almost certainly be well out of the sight of any officials.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

What was the incident and what did people do wrong?

Quote
DaveK
What was the incident and what did people do wrong?

Fairly novice driver allowed a road worker to wave them on instead of stopping at accident. No OK sign, you stop.

---

Grant Hughes