Fiestas are brilliant.....

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NoCoast

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DaveK
What was the incident and what did people do wrong?

Fairly novice driver allowed a road worker to wave them on instead of stopping at accident. No OK sign, you stop.

Huh... that's a tough situation. I could see myself trusting a course worker in the heat of the moment. Not saying its right, but easy to do... why would a course worker be waving you on if there was a serious situation.

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NoCoast

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DaveK
What was the incident and what did people do wrong?

Fairly novice driver allowed a road worker to wave them on instead of stopping at accident. No OK sign, you stop.

Thought I heard the rumor that multiple (3?) cars got "waved past".

IMO, road marshals shouldn't have FRS/GMRS radios (gives the impression that they're in touch with someone), and should be instructed to not interact with the competition cars at all. But, that would probably require an event to have a volunteer meeting that consists of more than "here's your vest, lets go"...

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

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Anders Green
So as far as that rally, that day, that stage, to med sweep / first sweep, there was no additional benefit provided by the $700 that the racers spent for the system.

It's always good to know how tests are being done before you judge them.
I talked to the lead guy from RallySafe tonight about it. They were sitting in 'rally control' when the car stopped. They showed an OK, but stayed stopped. RallySafe then texted the unit asking if it was a mechanical failure, and the crew responded yes.

The organisers knew the location and status of the car virtually instantly. The 'test' was to see how long the 'normal' procedure would take to resolve the missing car.

(I expect that they would have shared the information immediately had it been an SOS)

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
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Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Not taking any stand on RallySafe but for the noobs or folks not directly involved with organizing events :
We (NRS and RA anyway) establish a safety plan for each and every event. The PNW uses a lot of medics, generally riding with the sweep crews. Sweep crews are all carrying emergency and medical equipment as well as first responder training, most are hams. They meet and train during the off events time.

We have every access road, spectator corner, possible helo landing and routes to various hospitals and clinics all established. Radio frequencies established. Local authorities all informed. It is a huge document and there are several copies amongst the teams. We also have hams at the start and stop of the stages and generally at spectator areas and sometimes in the middle of nowhere. There are repeaters placed in some areas to ensure coverage.

Now when it all goes wrong a certain number of things need to occur. First off someone must recognize the fact we have a problem, another competitor, worker or spectator. They have to deal with the immediate situation which could be anything from a crash injury to a bystander having a heart attack or an organizer melt down . Then somehow the 'officials' need notified. Stage has to be stopped and that includes dealing with cars already on stage. You can't send aid from the middle or end against possible rally traffic. Disaster awaits. You can't safely send aid downstream on a hot stage either. On a stage like Nahwatzel we might have nearly the whole field at once on stage..20-30 cars. So..we may have any sort of emergency, wait for someone to stop, ait for another car to stop, wait for one of the cars to proced for help, relay info, stop the stage, wait for medical, get decision at scene, relay info and institute extraction. We could be talking a very sizeable amount of time here...enough to make that golden hour a bit tarnished. Non-rally traffic can't really do 80mph on stage safely, so response time can take a while.

A car out of sight down a bank, a worker having an issue along stage can all go unnoticed easily. We probably ought to have all cars equipped with ham radios and first responder certs...but we don't. We should have a fool proof plan for response, but we don't (too many fools for one thing). We simply can't envision every scenario that can happen.

A person can callously say it is a risk and we accept it but..will that person feel no remorse, guilt or grief if their actions cause injury or death to another? Will they never lay awake at night wondering if it could have been different? "What if I took a different line?" What if I called the corner different?" "What if we had cautioned that corner?" " What if we had a medic stationed there?" "What if or I wished" will dominate someones thoughts for a long time after tragedy.

So...I don't know...think about it. The people actually involved need to decide if and what measures are reasonable. I still remember the despair in Steve's voice when he called me during Olympus after markers incident. I never want to hear that again, yet I hear it in my mind right now.

Instant info might be a great advantage, might not work in every situation, might make no difference in the end on that day..might save your life tho...think about it.

Carry on.

Some unorganized thoughts on this thread.

I could practically go on a cruise for what a rally weekend costs, and now we are going to raise the cost? And don't say it's going to be sponsored. It may be sponsored/supplemented/covered for the first year, maybe two but it will work it's way into entry fees. Hell, if sponsors are so easy, get verizon to sponsor data coverage for the event. Then we can track everyone with their phones.

If all i'm worried about is mom/wife finding where I'm at 20 bucks a month gets me gps tracking, competitors can already do that.

As far as additional safety. If people can't follow the simple safety measures we have now why do we think adding more steps will make it better?

At the end of the day GPS still isn't trustworthy or trusted by the majority of users and we assume that because a blinky light goes off, someone is gonna pay attention to it?

Rally odo replacement- I don't have one as it is, and many don't. -because cost! If competitors aren't willing to pony up 100$ single time cost for a used ODO...

Every bit of this reads as being spoon fed, because we don't know better, or can't decide for ourselves. Morrison, you do present yourself as an expert in the matter, but the minute questions arise "well my betters know more than I, and they tell me its good. I really don't know anything"

Maybe this would be better served as a perk for the national entrants.

I have no desire to get into the altercation but there are times when I understand the frustrations from both sides of y'alls bickering.

The problem with doing it as a national entry is that aside from the top 5? competitors the rest are intermingled down to the back of the field.

Keep in mind the primary reason to have this system is to "keep competitors safer" so really if you were the Only car on stage with this system, its still keeping You safer.. remember the bit safety pitch is that race control knows you crashed seconds later. and that would still happen.

so having a mixed field some with, some with out, isn't really a problem now is it ?

If you are car #10 on the road, and #6-9 do not have this system you only lose out on 2 things.

2) stopped car on stage ahead of you warning - but they still have to put out triangles

1) distance to car ahead of you / pass request - you still have a horn, and front bumper :p

Nothing else would be different (as far as Car #10 is concerned) If they stop , race control instantly knows , they still have to deploy triangles and yada

Having only National teams sounds fine but remember this system needs more cars to lower the cost. Lspr it cost $700 per car to test the system. Rallisafe needs car counts to bring cost down. Im not sure why it needs all the fees? Im assuming some type of repeaters or how ever the system works need to be placed on stage so there isnt a chance of loosing a car? For Rallisafe or a trained rally employee to do all this work for 5 cars doesnt add up.

The potential to make better coverage of us hooning in the woods is more interesting to me. I think of the pitifull but still interesting tv RA had this year and I think how much better it could of been with Rallisafe.

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
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I don't think there are any cameras built into this.

and i think we can make our own, much cheaper. could be a fun project too

What's typically the first thing you see most crews do when they roll the car?
Get the fuck out of there.
So will that mean more tossed stages for non-critical accidents (overwhelming majority) as the crew isn't there to downgrade it or respond that it's not critical. Or do we now levy fines if you DON'T downgrade the crash? How often is the simple act of putting out a triangle overlooked?

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Grant Hughes

I seem to be pretty good at rolling a rallycar. Im in a hurry to get out quick more for being worried the next car may not see us and make things worse. I would remember to down grade the crash for sure. after your out your sense of urgancy goes way down.

I dont think they have Video was thinking more of live split times and instant scoring. They could go back and show where car lost or ganged time. All sorts of nerdy guru things to make up action. Thinking more of live coverage like Matt was doing last year. Camera guys could know when cars are coming and who they are.

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts

We have EPIRBs going off in lockers and closets unattended...but they might be a lower cost solution to the problem...if we actually decide we have a problem. Looking at past history, what would RallySafe have changed? We've had 4 lost lives out here, none of which would have been any different with RS. Technically we have help just behind us , in most instances, between 30 seconds and 2ish minutes most of the time. People need to be held responsible for their actions or lack of. Nobody has any God given or Gubmint guaranteed right to rally. RA and NRS can sure as hell pull a license if they desire, not sure about CARS. No fair trial by peers required. Is a sponsor now a sponsor later? Who knows, but I'd insist on a 10 contract and some sort of hedge against bankruptcy or default. No one wants to open Pandora's box and find out she hasn't washed....

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heymagic
We have EPIRBs going off in lockers and closets unattended...but they might be a lower cost solution to the problem...if we actually decide we have a problem. Looking at past history, what would RallySafe have changed? We've had 4 lost lives out here, none of which would have been any different with RS. Technically we have help just behind us , in most instances, between 30 seconds and 2ish minutes most of the time. People need to be held responsible for their actions or lack of. Nobody has any God given or Gubmint guaranteed right to rally. RA and NRS can sure as hell pull a license if they desire, not sure about CARS. No fair trial by peers required. Is a sponsor now a sponsor later? Who knows, but I'd insist on a 10 contract and some sort of hedge against bankruptcy or default. No one wants to open Pandora's box and find out she hasn't washed....

That what i was saying: it does not "increase safety"...reports that tell you a car has stopped---for whatever reason do not make it un-flip if they happen to inform people quicker...

And glad you caught to ad-straw-ni-man---paradox BS about "we can't just penalize ....very hard to prove"
Easy:
Post incident when you have established the position of the burned out wreck with the driver and co-driver and the 4 nuns they stopped to pick up all smokin and crispy,

you ask every car started after: Did you stop!? (and you backhand them hard across the chops) and then you scream "YOU LIE!" (and you forehand slap them).."If you stopped, why aren't you there when NEXT car came?!"?" (Hard backhand, maybe with your revolver in hand) "You LIE!!!" You weren't there!
(BANG, thud),
''der nächste!''




What bullshit....

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
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is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

So, Wait. Isn't this thing some better cell coverage and an app away from being rendered a waste of time?

How much money is to much to spend on a stopgap waiting for the 5-10 years it'll take for most of these forests to have phone coverage?

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Enablers, All of you.

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Reamer
Having only National teams sounds fine but remember this system needs more cars to lower the cost. Lspr it cost $700 per car to test the system. Rallisafe needs car counts to bring cost down. Im not sure why it needs all the fees? Im assuming some type of repeaters or how ever the system works need to be placed on stage so there isnt a chance of loosing a car? For Rallisafe or a trained rally employee to do all this work for 5 cars doesnt add up.

The potential to make better coverage of us hooning in the woods is more interesting to me. I think of the pitifull but still interesting tv RA had this year and I think how much better it could of been with Rallisafe.

FYI, ended up costing most of the teams nothing to try it out at LSPR. There was the initial email, yes, but Nick Roberts fronted most of the money to bring two Rallysafe employees from Australia to train on how to setup the system in the cars. That is where the bulk of the cost came from. After that first email, not surprisingly not many people jumped on it. Then it was offered at something like $100 per car to try it out, still not many biters, then was just asking a bunch of people if they wouldn't mind actually having it in their car just so they could get more cars in the system.

I personally would have enjoyed having it in the car to try out. Seemed like a pretty cool system and those who used it liked it. Especially if it can transmit stage times from other competitors and give advance information on accidents that we are approaching or passing people.

P.S. the Fiestas are indeed brilliant. I am looking to sell my car to pick up an ST after test driving one. So much fun!