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Fiestas are brilliant.....

Posted by danster 
Reamer
Jeff Reamer
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Re: Fiestas are brilliant.....
October 31, 2014 12:08PM
Sure would of liked to of known that at the rally! I would of paid $100 and tried it. I talked to Nick Roberts about the system dearing recce. He never mentioned it was free or cheap. I was going off the email for the $700 figure. Funny I was there for 5 days and never new I could of had the system in my car. Bummer!



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Anders Green
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Re: Fiestas are brilliant.....
October 31, 2014 01:57PM
Quote
MConte05
...to bring two Rallysafe employees from Australia to train on how to setup the system in the cars.

Interesting. I wonder who they were. I was in registration for most of both days and I didn't see
anyone staffing the box of equipment. It was a zip-lock back with the stuff inside and a list of
teams who were going to use it. (An entry list with some lines highlighted.) The one team that
came to pick up their equipment during my registration shift got their bag and a checkmark on
our list. We asked around for instructions but nobody knew anything. (There were no instructions
in the bag.)

Anybody see those guys anywhere?

Anders





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MConte05
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Re: Fiestas are brilliant.....
October 31, 2014 03:50PM
Quote
Anders Green
Quote
MConte05
...to bring two Rallysafe employees from Australia to train on how to setup the system in the cars.

Interesting. I wonder who they were. I was in registration for most of both days and I didn't see
anyone staffing the box of equipment. It was a zip-lock back with the stuff inside and a list of
teams who were going to use it. (An entry list with some lines highlighted.) The one team that
came to pick up their equipment during my registration shift got their bag and a checkmark on
our list. We asked around for instructions but nobody knew anything. (There were no instructions
in the bag.)

Anybody see those guys anywhere?

Anders

I saw them running around during recce, two younger looking guys in a black fleece with the RallySafe logo on it. Also saw them at the end of the rally at the final MTC removing the equipment from people's cars.

Though honestly probably wouldn't have been able to discern them from any other 20-something fan who was out there all bundled up too!
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Fiestas are brilliant.....
October 31, 2014 08:24PM
Must be unbelievably super complicated if it takes sending 2 whole technicians all the way from OZ to set it up.
Experience shows that things that are that complicated and impossible to write clear instructions for are certain to constantly fail in field use.

Therefore it is as I suggested: typical hi-tech overpromised shit that one nerd convinces some other nerd-jerk that this only half done thing is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo utterly coooool---except it only works when 1 or gad-zooks 2!! guys come and tweak it and kick the thing right there..

What predictable load of horseshit.

Gee golly how do we manage to make cars run without flying Fritz and Hans over from Der Bundesrepublik? Or a platoon of Japanese boffins to keep all the Subies going?



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Robert Culbertson
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Re: Fiestas are brilliant.....
November 02, 2014 04:01AM
John, the company I work for is constantly sending engineers out into the field to deal with issues. The problem is usually the consumer doesn't know how to use a ratchet properly, or they don't have the tools available to them. I am not joking. This is a serious issue that we see. I just made a service bulletin about it....

More bulletins will save rally!
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heymagic
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Re: Fiestas are brilliant.....
November 02, 2014 10:10AM
Nameless rally. Alan had huge issues with Anders new scoring system. Alan does that computer stuff for a living. Anders was nice enough to call and got things fixed. Sometimes tech help is needed with a new program. Plus the guys from oz got a mini vacation...
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Morison
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Re: Fiestas are brilliant.....
November 02, 2014 11:20AM
RallySafe is not a hammer. Think of it as a CNC mill and the CRC as someone who's never used one before.

A big part of their presence at the events was to show how to deal with installations (which are really easy) show how to program the units and the system, show the features of the system to the organisers.

From everything I saw and heard, the system ran flawlessly. Yes, there is a learning curve for how it will be implemented, and definitely a temporary install of the system has issues (screen placement and visibility) but overall the reaction was good to it.

Some interesting things happened.

- We passed several cars that had stopped, or crashed, on stage and in every case we saw the warning on the screen before the first triangle. In two cases, we saw the warning before the crew COULD have placed a triangle. (Neither case was a blockage)

- We used 'push to pass' twice in one stage... in both cases the cars pulled over almost immediately and we lost practically no time to them.

- I was able to check the 'unofficial' stage times on transits immediately following the stage. By the time we got to the next in-control I already knew where we were sitting.

But... we also had a textbook case for the system:

A car rolled in the middle of a tight corner, hit the trees and ended up upside down, blocking the road. The crew selected SOS, since they were still in a very VERY dangerous position. The next car got to them before they got triangles out BUT... got the SOS on their display 300m out, and were able to stop before getting to the car. The driver and co-driver say that WITH OUT A DOUBT, they would have hit the car blocking the road and/or had to drive into the (big) trees themselves (at over 100km/h)
(We went off on that same corner last year and it is a fast entry into a blind corner into the trees)

When they arrived on the scene, they pressed a second SOS, which cause the orgs to stop sending competitors in and send closing and medical sweep into the stage... within minutes of the accident happening. (I haven't seen the actual incident logs, but do know that when I got on the radio, about 5 minutes after the accident happened - we were 3rd on scene - they were already on the move.)

Even if you want to dismiss the 'response' time benefit, and say that there are not enough accidents requiring immediate response in North America, a big point here is that even though the crew that went off was eventually determined to be OK, the system saved likely tens of thousands of dollars in property damage, not to mention the risk of injury to the second car's crew.

Interestingly, having a HAM radio in cars near the scene was also a HUGE benefit to getting out more detailed information, but importantly - the response had already been started, and they were already thinking about the next steps.



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john vanlandingham
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HiTempguy
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Re: Fiestas are brilliant.....
November 02, 2014 01:15PM
[Devils advocate]Of course, is use of the SOS appropriate for this situation?

We're not supposed to use the redcross to stop people on stage, proper protocol would dictate a triangle no? Its been made very clear when the appropriate signals are supposed to be used. So if the team had hit the triangle response feature, would the team have slowed down as much and/or not hit them?[/devilsadvocate]

At the end of the day, smart move on their part. Of course, I am glad you put so much weight on specific anecdotal evidence of them "without a doubt" hitting the other car whereas this situation has happened (relatively) a lot in the past decade and car on car collision has been extremely rare.

And finally, bringing dollar figures into this basically means its insurance. Pay $xxx per event to avoid car on car collisions, what a deal! winking smiley

I actually was overall disappointed in the system for live viewing. It was neat, but I don't really care for any of the features besides the "safety" ones. Would be neat to get a cheaper system with only safety specific features, but I doubt it would be much if any cheaper.
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Brian Johnson
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Re: Fiestas are brilliant.....
November 02, 2014 01:44PM
Any idea if this going to be tried again at Pines, Keith?



-Brian
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heymagic
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Re: Fiestas are brilliant.....
November 02, 2014 06:53PM
Claiming possible prevention of injury or damage is maybe a stretch. I'll agree the possibility is there, but equally the possibility nothing would have occurred. Bells and whistles are neat. What about FCC and or radio interference or someone bugging the system? Any concerns there?
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Snidewhips
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Re: Fiestas are brilliant.....
November 02, 2014 07:07PM
!



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2014 08:03PM by Snidewhips.
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Morison
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Re: Fiestas are brilliant.....
November 02, 2014 08:08PM
Quote
Brian Johnson
Any idea if this going to be tried again at Pines, Keith?

Nope.
There will be another tracker being tried there, apparently, that is GSM based but doesn't have any car to car function.



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Morison
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Re: Fiestas are brilliant.....
November 02, 2014 11:19PM
Quote
HiTempguy
[Devils advocate]Of course, is use of the SOS appropriate for this situation?
Don't forget this is a new tool, and not quite subject to the same rules. In reality, the way the signals are used will need to be considered and developed as a part of implementation, if we decide to use the system.
In this case, until the triangle is out and the crew is safely away from the car I'd say probably yes, it is an appropriate use.

Quote
HiTempguy
We're not supposed to use the redcross to stop people on stage, proper protocol would dictate a triangle no? Its been made very clear when the appropriate signals are supposed to be used. So if the team had hit the triangle response feature, would the team have slowed down as much and/or not hit them?[/devilsadvocate]

Agreed, in principle.

Quote
HiTempguy
At the end of the day, smart move on their part. Of course, I am glad you put so much weight on specific anecdotal evidence of them "without a doubt" hitting the other car whereas this situation has happened (relatively) a lot in the past decade and car on car collision has been extremely rare.
There was another incident in this event that was very similar, but with more room to get around the car and the crew was out, and working on triangles. Earlier this year I was in a car that chose stuffing into a snowbank instead of hitting another car. I can think of several other examples of the same thing happening. I wouldn't agree with 'extremely rare.'


Quote
HiTempguy
I actually was overall disappointed in the system for live viewing. It was neat, but I don't really care for any of the features besides the "safety" ones. Would be neat to get a cheaper system with only safety specific features, but I doubt it would be much if any cheaper.
The features you are interested cost little, to nothing, to implement but also present a chance to 'market' the system to sponsors.



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john vanlandingham
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Re: Fiestas are brilliant.....
November 03, 2014 10:12AM
Quote
Morison
I wouldn't agree with 'extremely rare.'

Well you wouldn't agree because what you are agreeing/disagreeing with has nothing to do with what I said and you taking my words as a completely different context. winking smiley

I said "car on car collisions" are extremely rare. I am fairly confident in this statement. I never said avoiding one is rare, but I would also hazard an extremely uninformed guess that avoiding one where great value in damage occurs (>$5k) is also "extremely rare".

I never argued the fact that a feature with "CAR BLOCKING THE ROAD STTTTTTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHP" wouldn't be extremely useful. Completely agree. But there are varying circumstances where the exact scenario that happened may not be how it pans out (following car has been catching up, people in the crash don't have the ability or place of mind to instantly hit "road blocked" signal, etc). So I take issue with the "without a doubt there would be a crash without this feature" and "this system single handedly helped avoid this incident".
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czwalga
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Re: Fiestas are brilliant.....
November 03, 2014 10:21AM
Quote
HiTempguy
Quote
Morison
I wouldn't agree with 'extremely rare.'

Well you wouldn't agree because what you are agreeing/disagreeing with has nothing to do with what I said and you taking my words as a completely different context. winking smiley

I said "car on car collisions" are extremely rare. I am fairly confident in this statement. I never said avoiding one is rare, but I would also hazard an extremely uninformed guess that avoiding one where great value in damage occurs (>$5k) is also "extremely rare".

I never argued the fact that a feature with "CAR BLOCKING THE ROAD STTTTTTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHP" wouldn't be extremely useful. Completely agree. But there are varying circumstances where the exact scenario that happened may not be how it pans out (following car has been catching up, people in the crash don't have the ability or place of mind to instantly hit "road blocked" signal, etc). So I take issue with the "without a doubt there would be a crash without this feature" and "this system single handedly helped avoid this incident".


My old celica was totaled by a car on car colision at NEFR this year.

When I was still driving the celica, we caused a car behind to us to wreck because we went off and couldnt get out before the next car came. (24 mile stage, just passed them so there was only about 20 seconds between us) They end up ditching and rolling right behind us.

I've also had a few close calls at snodrift over the year, spinning and the engine turns backwards and takes a while before the car wants to start again sitting right in the middle of the road. Hoping it starts in time, while attempting to get out is a dangerous situation.


That's just my personal dealings over the year, and why I like the system (not arguing over what price etc...) i'm just saying it would have prevented all of those situations provided the system worked properly.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2014 10:22AM by czwalga.
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