Rumours, Lies & Damn Lies
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Lies, Damn Lies, and *Statistics*

Posted by Anders Green 
NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Re: Lies, Damn Lies, and *Statistics*
April 17, 2012 12:05PM
A fellow rallyist and I were talking the other day.
His significant other and he combined are both finishing grad school and realistically should have around $120k combined salary in 2013. He is not sure about going in with us at our rally shop at $250 per month as he's not sure he will be able to afford it. They just signed a lease for a house with a $1500 per month bill, plus utilities! I give it six months before she buys a new car. I bet he'll stick with the $1000 Impreza for a while, though if his job ends up being a long commute I'll bet he gets a newer car.

I went to a local rental place the other day to see about a tiller. Noticed a flat bed, large enough for a car. Asked about rental, they said $60 a day. It's been a bit over a year, but a rental truck from Penske was around $450 for the weekend. That seems like alot, but it is only $50 more than the lease payment on the 2011 Dodge crew cab we ended up taking as Scott decided to buy a truck instead. Kern had even offered to rent us his truck.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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alosix
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Re: Lies, Damn Lies, and *Statistics*
April 17, 2012 12:28PM
$250 is a steal for shop space.. Remind me to hit you up if we ever end up in CO (50/50 on that).

$120k in gross income really isn't what it used to be, and I'd love to find a house to rent for only $1500.



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This isn't floor mat anarchy
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HiTempguy
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Re: Lies, Damn Lies, and *Statistics*
April 17, 2012 01:20PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
state it clearly since you're usually busy writing "I have to laugh at those guys....(anybody who has not bought a built Eclispe)" and telling us how awesome you are.

Well, while I am awesome, I would not recommend anybody buy my turd-mobile or something like it. Buying the cheapest piece of junk possible and getting it on stage? Absolutely would recommend winking smiley

We're all on the same team John, some of us just approach it differently.

Quote

Quite honestly, if a person is not bright enough or motivated enough to figure out that they don't need to run a WRC car and compete in 20 events per season in order to have fun in the woods, I don't know that their not being a part of the sport is such a bad thing.

Yes and no. The fact is, every sport needs it's version of mouthbreathers. I would hope the cost of entry would keep the worst ones out. Of course, if we need the worst ones to survive/grow the sport, well, I guess we have to cater to them, at least a little...
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Lies, Damn Lies, and *Statistics*
April 17, 2012 02:12PM
Quote
HiTempguy
Quote
john vanlandingham
state it clearly since you're usually busy writing "I have to laugh at those guys....(anybody who has not bought a built Eclispe)" and telling us how awesome you are.

Well, while I am awesome, I would not recommend anybody buy my turd-mobile or something like it. Buying the cheapest piece of junk possible and getting it on stage? Absolutely would recommend winking smiley

We're all on the same team John, some of us just approach it differently.
.

Not too sure about that.. as I say, you seem to go out of your way to express unconcealed contempt at what many here are doing...they haven't criticized your path, but you "laugh" at them.
Now I know and talk with a lot of the guys here and they all seem like pretty nice guys.....but for a 23-24 y.o. kid from nowhere to repeat
"I have to laugh at those guys", that doesn't SEEM like you and I and those guys I'm helping go their path are "on the same team".

But I don't know, maybe that's just the way young guys talk in your part of the world.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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Anders Green
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Re: Lies, Damn Lies, and *Statistics*
April 18, 2012 08:03AM
John, Adam, you guys should just give each other a respect-knuckle fist bump and buy each other beers. Enjoy the moment of peace between you that has momentarily decended... grinning smiley


... while it lasts. winking smiley

Anders



Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.
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aj_johnson
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Re: Lies, Damn Lies, and *Statistics*
April 18, 2012 09:57AM
Let me precede this by saying I haven't run a stage yet, and we'll see how I feel once I've paid entry fees.

Not a single one of my cars has been purchased with a dime from my paychecks.

What I mean by that is that when we got married I setup an account with 500 bucks, sold off everything that I owed money on (took some serious hits) and got out of debt. So I had an 86 toyota 4 runner that was paid for and 500 bucks.

Since then, I've bought and sold, bartered and traded cars, mopeds, wheels, done lawncare, taught skiing. all to fund a hobby that I couldn't in good conscience afford otherwise. We are a single income family with 2 kids making about 50k before taxes. About to buy a second house (first has been turned into a rental) and trying to create a stable future for my family.

I have no Idea how I'm going to pay for entry fees and used tires. I figure I'll cross that bridge when I get there. But as entry fees and used tires have no intrinsic value and I cant barter or trade them off once I'm done with them, I'm looking at one rally a year and a hill climb or two.

For the same amount of money i'm into this damn car I could have bought a shifter cart and an entry level cart for my daughter and been racing already. Plus now I would have picked a series that we could have enjoyed together.
Two carts we could have used as newbs: $2500
Yearly membership :$120
Practice sessions: $8 per driver
tires: under $200 a set for race days.
Entry fees: under $50 per driver
Tow: less than 10 miles

I'm tempted to finish the car and sell it before I ever even go to a rally. Dollars to smiles rally just doesn't make sense.
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NoCoast
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Re: Lies, Damn Lies, and *Statistics*
April 18, 2012 10:03AM
Quote
alosix
$250 is a steal for shop space.. Remind me to hit you up if we ever end up in CO (50/50 on that).

$120k in gross income really isn't what it used to be, and I'd love to find a house to rent for only $1500.

2400 sq ft shop space with lift, mig, and tig with attached office/hang out area, nice big lot with a Viking paint booth and a 45' container for storage of wheels/tires/parts.

$120k is at least $7k per month in take home. I suppose when you need a crew cab 3/4 ton diesel to pull your boat and your 5th wheel and your enclosed race car trailer and thus need a house with enough space to house all of this as well as a rental to store it once you get fucked by the HOA a few too many times. smiling smiley

It always comes down to one thing. Commitment. Rallying requires sacrifices and commitment that is too much for most people.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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alosix
Jason Powers
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Re: Lies, Damn Lies, and *Statistics*
April 18, 2012 10:09AM
Quote

120k is at least $7k per month in take home.

Not in CA sad smiley .. well maybe .. maybe if you add a kid and a mortgage deduction.. Much closer to $6k in that range, if not a little under for a single guy renting from that I remember when I moved out here. $1k a month is rally funding $$ smiling smiley...

But yeah.. its def about commitment and some sacrifice. I'm finally in a good place to give it a go now.

Hope my 5/4 ton tow vehicle doesn't count against me smiling smiley

Jason



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hoche
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Re: Lies, Damn Lies, and *Statistics*
April 30, 2012 07:31PM
Quote
Anders Green


This is number of rally entries by cars in the US, covering all rallies/rallysprints, by anyone, anywhere in the US.

I was digging in the Anti-Shipping Activity Message database and happened to notice the following:




Clearly the rally entry count has an inverse relationship to pirate activity.



Self-righteous douche canoe
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EricW
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Re: Lies, Damn Lies, and *Statistics*
April 30, 2012 09:13PM
I think the downfall of rally is inversely proportional to the rise of these musical video games. Just look at this video for proof. I can't believe a rallyist would spend their time playing this instead of playing a *driving* videogame. Sacrilege!



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Logic
Damian Yearwood
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Re: Lies, Damn Lies, and *Statistics*
May 03, 2012 12:02AM
LOL this is funny
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Ian S
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Re: Lies, Damn Lies, and *Statistics*
May 09, 2012 12:23AM
Quote
aj_johnson
Let me precede this by saying I haven't run a stage yet, and we'll see how I feel once I've paid entry fees.

Not a single one of my cars has been purchased with a dime from my paychecks.

What I mean by that is that when we got married I setup an account with 500 bucks, sold off everything that I owed money on (took some serious hits) and got out of debt. So I had an 86 toyota 4 runner that was paid for and 500 bucks.

Since then, I've bought and sold, bartered and traded cars, mopeds, wheels, done lawncare, taught skiing. all to fund a hobby that I couldn't in good conscience afford otherwise. We are a single income family with 2 kids making about 50k before taxes. About to buy a second house (first has been turned into a rental) and trying to create a stable future for my family.

I have no Idea how I'm going to pay for entry fees and used tires. I figure I'll cross that bridge when I get there. But as entry fees and used tires have no intrinsic value and I cant barter or trade them off once I'm done with them, I'm looking at one rally a year and a hill climb or two.

For the same amount of money i'm into this damn car I could have bought a shifter cart and an entry level cart for my daughter and been racing already. Plus now I would have picked a series that we could have enjoyed together.
Two carts we could have used as newbs: $2500
Yearly membership :$120
Practice sessions: $8 per driver
tires: under $200 a set for race days.
Entry fees: under $50 per driver
Tow: less than 10 miles

I'm tempted to finish the car and sell it before I ever even go to a rally. Dollars to smiles rally just doesn't make sense.

I have played around in karts, done auto Xs, rally Xs, track days, drift days, fun runs, and drag racing. All are entertaining in thier own way. For me though, they are like jacking off in the shower. It sort of scratches the itch, but I sure as hell would rather be diddling Yvonne Strahovski.

Even with my underpowered econowedge, with its broken suspension and used tires, I felt like I was having the best sex in the world. Cant wait to see how things go with the new boingers and motor.



I Seppanen, Car #240
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aj_johnson
A.J. Johnson
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Re: Lies, Damn Lies, and *Statistics*
May 09, 2012 08:29AM
I was having a rough go that day. ^ got my head back on and charging forward.

I may still have to buy a kart or two over the next couple years.
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EricW
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Re: Lies, Damn Lies, and *Statistics*
May 09, 2012 08:34AM
If you have around 5 minutes, give a listen to this *whole* broadcast: http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2012/05/09/152287372/partisan-psychology-why-are-people-partial-to-political-loyalties-over-facts

From today's NPR. It has a lot to do with this argument, I believe.
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DR1665
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Re: Lies, Damn Lies, and *Statistics*
May 09, 2012 02:09PM
Quote
NoCoast
It always comes down to one thing. Commitment. Rallying requires sacrifices and commitment that is too much for most people.

You rang? I'm living proof.

Bought my car in, what, 2004? In all this time, I've managed to get a partial cage in it. Clearly, if competing was important to me, I'd have made it happen years ago. Anyone who can afford to play with cars can rally. Period. I can afford to play with cars, so why haven't I completed my rally car?

Priorities. Commitment. Cigarettes come to mind. At $7/pack, a pack-a-day habit translates to more than $2500/yr simply lit on fire and thrown away. Looking back, it's all so fucking stupid. I mean, really? Over 7 years, I managed to find over $17,000 - literally to burn - but I couldn't scrape together six grand to complete a basic rally car and show up at Prescott ready to finish dead last?

I've since quit smoking, but the more I think about it, the more I question my desire to build a proper rally car at all. I still love rally, but I just can't justify the commitment of resources to something I'll only be able to afford to do once or twice a year (given other priorities). It just doesn't make sense. And what does make sense? Building a general purpose race car I can afford to play with at least monthly.

$300 buys a day of hot laps on a proper road course.
$100 buys a day of autox or rallyx shenanigans.
$20 buys a night at the drag strip with buddies.
And it's still free to explore dirt roads.

With the exception of rallyx, pretty much all these events take place on an almost monthly basis. So if I just get the damn car back together, I can simply throw a set of decent tires on it and go play the following weekend for less than what a night at the typical rally host hotel costs.

So Grant's dead right on this one. Where there's a will, there's a way. Some people have big houses, big trucks, and shiny new cars. I like to get out of the country every other year to meet gearheads and explore car culture abroad. There's no reason why I "can't" complete a race car build. It's just priorities and commitment. I'm committed to completing a race car, but a rally log book is no longer a priority.

That said, I'm going to drop an easy $500 this weekend to stand by myself on the side of dirt road in the middle of nowhere because I consider the Marciniaks family and helping them with their rally is more important to me than completing the build of my race car. Same goes for Prescott later this year.

Rally is for people who can afford to have multiple expensive hobbies or who fully submerge themselves in one hobby. If we want more rally competitors, the complexities and costs have to come down precipitously, or we need to more aggressively market to people already active in other forms of motorsport.



Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest
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