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Introduction / 4 seater cage question

Posted by timiacobucci 
timiacobucci
Tim Iacobucci
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Location: Orlando FL
Join Date: 02/23/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 48

Rally Car:
90 Plymouth Colt Vista


Introduction / 4 seater cage question
February 23, 2015 05:19AM
Hello my name is Tim Iacobucci, i've been reading on this forum for a few years now but just decided to join and post a question for you knowledgeable cage guys. My car is a very strange and rare one, it's an awd plymouth colt vista. It has a sohc 4g63 stock with about 90 hp. The weight of the car and nature of the awd system which is similar to a 1g dsm but different in key ways makes it extremely fun to drive hard.



I have read the fia 253 specs and read quite a few discussions on here about the requirements for this type of cage. I also am not sure if I will ever actually rally this car but at a minimum i am going to make it allot faster and the overall safety and construction of it scare the hell out of me so i am putting a cage in it. I have driven it on quite a few fun mountain roads, tail of the dragon ect.



I figure if I am possibly going to go flying off the road into trees on my own why not build a cage which has evolved for such things and maybe even try some actual rally stuff if I can build the cage to spec.

With that said I also would like to still use the car. I realize that is perhaps an unreasonable compromise but just hear me out before you shoot me down on this.

It is a 4 door 4 seater, ideally I am wondering if there is anyways to build a 4 seater rally cage. The bigger issue is I use it for hauling stuff too,



Obviously a traditional 253-35C cage would get in the way quite a bit for rear passengers or longer cargo.

My idea/question/proposition is this and please overlook the quick childish drawing, I will make a proper model of it later depending how hard it gets shot down here.



I have a few questions about this suggestion. The first major problem I see with this design is the backstays not being straight off the main hoop. I don't see how a properly braced 2nd main hoop would not be as strong or stronger with proper backstays supporting it though.

Would a removable X brace (the red part of the drawing) going directly from the main hoop to the rear mounts compensate for the alteration of the main back stays? Under 8.3.1 basic structure it says "The backstays must be attached near the roofline and near the top outer bends of the main rollbar, on both sides of the car, possibly by means of removable connections."

I understand such an x brace would be considered a reinforcement and not a backstay but it would be a direct reinforcement of the backstay. Also under what conditions would the main backstay "possibly" be removable?

Lastly the blue section in my diagram for the door bar x upper height, the only specifications I could find regarding this is that it could not be more than half the height of the door opening. I have seen some which are very low, is there a minimum height requirement?
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William Marenich
William Marenich
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
February 23, 2015 08:47AM
You may need to ask your self a few questions before you decide to spend any money on this.

Is this your daily driver?
Do you plan on wearing a helmet everday to work in your cage car?
Do you plan on making your family wear helmets when going to school?
Do you still plan on using your car as a truck with a cage in it? Good luck trying to fit anything large in there.

I understand that you want to drive spirited, but it unsafe for the rest of the people around you. If you want to have fun take it to an rally cross.
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Saab 96 V4



Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
February 23, 2015 10:09AM
Where do these people come from?

What part of the word rally do people not get? or belive?

First a convertable Mooseangst.
Now a Colt Vista awd wagoon? (Which I trip over gearbox and engine and all kinds of internal bits EVERY DAY for last 13 years.)

Shirley.
You cannot be serious.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
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tdrrally
edward mucklow
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ford mustang LX 5.0, 1973 VW Beetle



Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
February 23, 2015 12:09PM
you would need to treat your vista like an SUV for the cage.

you seem to be on the right track by your sketch.

i like the idea of a 4g63t powered awd vista wagon

post some pix of your build and if you get a chance run some rally crosses with that beast!



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
February 23, 2015 12:44PM
Quote
tdrrally
you would need to treat your vista like an SUV for the cage.

you seem to be on the right track by your sketch.

i like the idea of a 4g63t powered awd vista wagon

post some pix of your build and if you get a chance run some rally crosses with that beast!

You ever even SAT in one of those things? Know ANYTHING about them?

What pleasure to you get in "encouraging" people to put effort into obviously pointless dead end chassis?

Or is it just because its bizarre (or as the people who want to do wierd stuff say "It's Unique!!!!grinning smiley " )



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Merkur



Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
February 23, 2015 03:05PM
It's a mildly better choice that a Kia Sorento.
I had friends with those in high school. Fun little shitbox, I'd never consider it for a rally car or roll cage.
Safety and shenanigans don't mix. Otherwise we wouldn't have the Darwin Awards. If you are going to play on public roads you have to have the public road risks.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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tdrrally
edward mucklow
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ford mustang LX 5.0, 1973 VW Beetle



Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
February 23, 2015 03:33PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Quote
tdrrally
you would need to treat your vista like an SUV for the cage.

you seem to be on the right track by your sketch.

i like the idea of a 4g63t powered awd vista wagon

post some pix of your build and if you get a chance run some rally crosses with that beast!

You ever even SAT in one of those things? Know ANYTHING about them?

What pleasure to you get in "encouraging" people to put effort into obviously pointless dead end chassis?

Or is it just because its bizarre (or as the people who want to do weird stuff say "It's Unique!!!!grinning smiley " )

i have owned several over the years and really enjoyed them !!!
ran the devil out of every one i had too
i will buy a mitsu long
before i buy a Volvo that is for sure !!!

all the mechanical bits are basically the same as dsm and/or evo stuff





run it and have fun!



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2015 03:42PM by tdrrally.
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timiacobucci
Tim Iacobucci
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Location: Orlando FL
Join Date: 02/23/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 48

Rally Car:
90 Plymouth Colt Vista


Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
February 23, 2015 04:06PM
C'mon man, it's not a convertible. I will expand on the details of my ideas and seriousness later today when I have time.

John, from my reading on here you are a smartass so I think we would get along in real life quite well, I also respect your opinion so please hear me out, and don't call me Shirley. The car is probably the best suited to this style of racing I have ever driven. It is an evo in front and 911/e30 in the back. Have you driven or looked at the chassis setup on awd one? They are not too far off from a 1g dsm that people rally, so why is this so different? Also what parts do you have access too? That could be useful even if I decide not to rally the car at all. I am already building a W4A33 dsm awd auto transmission in anticipation of the km182 grenading. Even at that, a few of the critical internals I think are stronger than the dsm w5m33 5 spd transmission. There is no classic center diff with spider gears to break, the t case is much stronger. I'll go on with the technical details of the build later if you guys are interested in hearing about it.

I think much of this car is actually more suited for rally than a dsm. The ground clearance and engine placement make it much better protected from underneath. The main front to back crossmember goes under the bottom of the oil pan, not the pan dragging setup of the dsms, the tcase and driveshaft also exit above the front subframe, the rack is mounted above the subframe not underneath like the dsm, it's all very well suited for an undertray. The subframe is already solid mounted from the factory unlike the big rubber mush the dsms use. No open center diff, just one big viscous unit in the 2 piece driveshaft (not 3 piece lobro joint system like the dsm). The big viscous coupler while not my favorite thing ever is actually very tight, a good bit tighter and less civilized than it's dsm cousin. It pushes into corners but actually transitions to power on oversteer because it locks fairly quickly which dsms really don't do without a welded center. It was simply engineered more for offroad use than dsms. It needs structural reinforcement in a bad way though.

I don't mind entertaining any and all of these discussions but you are side tracking the shit out of me, first off let me get back to the main cage questions I had.

What are the conditions for the backstays to be removable?

I don't mind loosing the back seats, if I do welded straight rear stays can the rearward x reinforcement be removable? It's not even 100% required for a strict 253 36c cage is it?

How low is that door x supposed to be?

Something like this for example seems super low to me,



This is not the first time I've dealt with reinforcing weak unibodies or making them fast. I just don't have rally experience. I am not set on any of this stuff, I'm just asking questions and looking for knowledge and advice, I AM listening to what you guys are saying.

Regadless of wether it gets rallied at all or not this car will be very fast when I'm done and needs a cage one way or another, I just happen to like the FIA design better than most drag cage designs. I do appreciate the concerns about using helmets so you don't crack your skull open on the cage. Hardly anyone rides with me, especially if I remove the back seats. Look at the thickness of the doors and b pillar in that picture with the clock though, in a bad accident the sides of that car are coming in on me and smashing my skull anyways. That's just if I get t boned by a jeep going through a red light regardless of my driving safety (true story btw). If I get something like a schroth quickfit 4/5 point harness it should not be any more cumbersome to fasten than a normal belt and keep me from moving far enough to come into contact with the cage and still be dot legal. Not that lots of people don't ignore all these considerations in FL allot of the time anyways. It's my understanding your helmet is not suppose to contact the cage either unless something has failed. I almost feel like I'm driving a motorcycle in this car with as much faith as I have in the structural strength the doors and pillars provide. Instead of looking at this from the point of view of how safe it is to drive with a cage with no helmet, let me ask how would you go about making this car safer to drive in normal traffic just as it is? If this were a modern car well engineered for safety with wide doors with impact beams and side curtain airbags there would be no argument, but right now it is a tin can death trap.

I was asking about the dual main hoop idea because I realize straight backstays would be extremely dangerous for anyone in the back seat, not that I couldn't still build it like that, it's just that no one could actually ever ride there. I don't see why with proper seats and harnesses a cage in the front area could not be workable, am I just completely wrong about this? Please don't just say YES, a little explanation or information goes a long way. I don't mind reading and researching if you just point me in the right direction.
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timiacobucci
Tim Iacobucci
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Location: Orlando FL
Join Date: 02/23/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 48

Rally Car:
90 Plymouth Colt Vista


Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
February 23, 2015 04:16PM
Ok I'm sorry about the comment about sliding off the road into trees thing, that was a bit in jest and considering the audience here I didn't really expect backlash from it. Let me explain a bit. I never mess around in traffic with other cars around, I've never been in an accident where it wasn't blatantly the other parties fault. IE girl in jeep going through a red light. The tail of the dragon is a crazy windy mountain road, it's out in the smokey mountains in the middle of nowhere and mostly anyone that goes there goes with the intention of spirited driving. I don't do stuff like this often but this car was exceptional at it even with NO balls. It also has almost no real safety if anything were to go wrong, even in Orlando traffic.

You guys know your shit and I want to hear what you think. Can you tell me a little more why you think this platform is so unsuitable for rally use?
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tdrrally
edward mucklow
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
February 23, 2015 04:23PM
i will say there are better choices out there

but your car is ok if it makes you smile as long as your out for fun and improving yourself



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!
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Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
February 23, 2015 04:29PM
It's really not that much worse than this... winking smiley

Maybe even better... winking smiley
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alkun
Albert Kun
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
February 23, 2015 06:30PM
Quote
timiacobucci


What are the conditions for the backstays to be removable?

I don't mind loosing the back seats, if I do welded straight rear stays can the rearward x reinforcement be removable? It's not even 100% required for a strict 253 36c cage is it?

How low is that door x supposed to be?

Something like this for example seems super low to me,



Those doorbars are actually pretty high in ther rear. Usually if top tube crosses the b-pilar at the door striker it works out right.

But first off, are you going to log book and rally this?

If not then you don't need to follow fia rules, and can do what ever you want. But that will likely make it more dangerous rather than safer, and ruin a totally sweet Plymouth Colt Vista.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2015 07:50PM by alkun.
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ChrisKobi
Chris Kobayashi
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
February 23, 2015 09:06PM
When first reading this the first thing I thought of was the 4 seater Chevy Sonic rally car in Transformers four.


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timiacobucci
Tim Iacobucci
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Location: Orlando FL
Join Date: 02/23/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 48

Rally Car:
90 Plymouth Colt Vista


Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
February 23, 2015 09:23PM
I like this one. Granted totally different chassis than mine but it gets the point across.






Still waiting to hear why the platform is crap, I see lots of dsms and evos, I think this is a superior starting point.

I don't know if it will ever get to the stage rally level. Gotta learn to walk before I run and all that, just rally cross stuff at first. The main thing is like I said it needs a damn cage, I don't want to mess that up now and have it be wrong if/when I get to the point of entertaining stage events. I'm trying to learn how to do an fia cage correctly and what can be changed and what can't. I'm not building the cage immediately but I want to have a solid idea what I'm doing when I plan it out.

Hold on let me gather some pictures and info here to throw up so you guys know I'm not bull shitting you about all this.
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alkun
Albert Kun
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
February 23, 2015 09:38PM
No one is going to harsh your mellow and tell you that your platform is crap. But, if you are thinking about maybe rallying it, you had better buy at least two more of them so you will have spare tail light lenses, fenders, windshields, etc.


And I'm not a tech inspector, but I'm pretty sure the double roll hoop design will not pass. If you look at 4-door cages, the main hoop is usually half way back into the rear door opening, (not at the B-pilar) so that there is enough room in front.
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