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Introduction / 4 seater cage question

Posted by timiacobucci 
aj_johnson
A.J. Johnson
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 01:14AM
Couple questions

Say you ball this thing into a tin beachball. How much of all the special crap transfers to another chassis directly (suspension, trans, diffs etc) Literally plug and play directly? evo, or DSM of some sort. If the majority of your parts n pieces bolt right up to an evo or something, it *kinda puts it in a different light

When you finally show up to compete, do you want to be the guy with his head buried under the hood monkeying with this or that one off part, or trying to fit a civic radiator or windshield in (or insert other readily rally broken part) because no local parts shop has one for a vista?

Or would you rather show up in something simple, go as fast as you friggen can, drink some beer and swap stories at the end of the day.
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timiacobucci
Tim Iacobucci
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90 Plymouth Colt Vista


Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 02:47AM
I've got a little more time to respond properly now.

I've never heard horses for courses before, I had to look it up. See I'm not denying at all you have allot of knowledge and experience, the sheer number of times I've needed to look shit up to even understand what you are saying is testamate to that. I keep saying it but I am listening to you and please don't interpret my questioning as disrespect, I really don't mean it like that. I know I've been wrong enough times in my life that I will always listen to a reasoned argument. I'm always open to changing my opinion on a particular matter. My thoughts about the cage for example have already evolved several times over this discussion.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Doooood we don't drive "off road". Basic fundamental error. We drive on roads.

I never said that. I thought the point was relevant not for offroad use but because it rationally follows that a car intended for offroad use was developed with a stronger chassis structure, which i believe this car has. Is that not useful for rally? You are the one who talks of the cage helping to preserve the chassis right? That's because it strengthens it and you beat it up in rally right? So wouldn't it be better to start off with a stronger chassis and then build on that?

Quote
John Vanlandingham
But you " wanted to experiment with a tunable front prolift/antidive solution "

This is bullshit of the most extreme sort... Again a basic fundamental error in thinking.

Like I have said, where did I say this applied to rally? I simply was explaining my own interest in this particular chassis. What is the fundamental error I am making?

Quote
John Vanlandingham
And you made no mention of the weight of the front of the three cars, no mention of the available travel, the intended usage, the damping rates..







I don't have a pdf for the vista and I don't have the fsm handy for the damper rates. The shock travel and spring installed height and general strut dimensions aside from the spring outer diamter are nearly identical to the galant though, which is nearly identical to the 1g dsm.



The other part of what you said, intended use is obviously the main difference here. For the vista, 1g dsm and galant it's same engine, identical or similar transmission, in the exact same location over the same McPherson strut suspension with nearly identical motion ratios and strut dimensions.

The dsm is a pure mainly 2 seater sports car. The vr4 galant is a sport sedan, the vista is a low speed offroad capable people mover. I concluded the spring rates were mainly selected based on intended use. My purpose in posting these rates was to say that just changing the springs and struts evens the playing field dramatically. Unrelated to rally rate selection, just as a relative comparison of the actual chassis worthiness, which is what I was suggesting you to try as you said the vista felt good only below 35. That was all I was addressing in stating the rates. The anti roll bars which I directly measured where about proportional to the 4 listed spring rates, sorry I don't have the #s handy now. All I was saying was judging the handling capability of this chassis by it's stock suspension really isn't fair.

Quote
John Vanlandingham
None of which has anything to do with either grass-o-cross or (gasp!) driving fast on a gravel road...

I wasn't saying that it was, but can you explain a bit more about proper rate selection for grass or gravel for a standard mcpherson type suspension based on the above stock specs? Or at least point me to a good resource for study or something useful to that end?

Quote
John Vanlandingham
Thus the info itself in isolation is doo doo
All discussions following from a departure point of dooo-dooo are naturally going to be dooo-dooo..
"the fruit of the tree of doo-dooo is also thus dooo-doo. As it was in the beginning, so shall it ever be doo-doo"

Can you see how you are doing the same to me though? All of this calling bullshit started from assuming I was using false information or meaningless comparisons. You misinterpret what I mean and go from there, or disbelieve the facts I state or their relevant context, which isn't true at all. All of the conclusions you draw based off these assumptions are then doo doo.

As for being called insane, it's not the first time. I assume most people into rally have been called insane quite a bit though, so extended me some slack on that, at least ask me to explain my thinking a bit more before you assume I'm being a complete idiot, or just explain why if you are certain that I am being a complete idiot.

Quote
John Vanlandingham
A wise man would think: dayum must be some good reasons they are doing those kinda cars...

My exploration of this argument about the vista chassis is my way of sorting out those very reasons.

Quote
John Vanlandingham
And fucking around with hodge podge junk shit that is frustrating seems to be LESS fun than driving a nice simple car that works..

If you make nice results, fine, like whatever, but I don't think high results are the central thing.

I DO appreciate this sentiment, really I do. It's to save ME time and frustration and it is a real thing I am trying to take into account. High results are not my central thing at all, like I said mainly it's just learning. This whole debate is a part of that process.
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timiacobucci
Tim Iacobucci
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 03:01AM
Quote
aj_johnson
Couple questions

Say you ball this thing into a tin beachball. How much of all the special crap transfers to another chassis directly (suspension, trans, diffs etc) Literally plug and play directly? evo, or DSM of some sort. If the majority of your parts n pieces bolt right up to an evo or something, it *kinda puts it in a different light

The engine, rear evo lsd diff, clutch setup, springs and shocks, brakes (with available brackets), and aluminum radiator will all go straight on a 1g dsm or vr4 galant. This transmission will not but I am expecting to break it and put the auto in eventually, which will bolt into a dsm or galant. The front wavetrac would only bolt straight into a fwd 2g dsm but I have an idea on how I could work it on an awd.

Quote
aj_johnson
When you finally show up to compete, do you want to be the guy with his head buried under the hood monkeying with this or that one off part, or trying to fit a civic radiator or windshield in (or insert other readily rally broken part) because no local parts shop has one for a vista?

Or would you rather show up in something simple, go as fast as you friggen can, drink some beer and swap stories at the end of the day.

As insane as it sounds I really love wrenching. Sometimes almost more than driving the stuff I build. Going fast does sound fun though and yours is a very valid point, most of the stuff i might need i can source as easily as a dsm or galant or 3000gt though.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 03:13AM
Quote
timiacobucci
. It's to save ME time and frustration and it is a real thing I am trying to take into account. High results are not my central thing at all, like I said mainly it's just learning. This whole debate is a part of that process.

What education do you have? Public or private schooling?
You seem to have the "wannabe injur-near" vibe

How much you pay for your schooling?

You say its to save you time and money--well you aren't saving either.
And wait, I'm supposed to invest hundreds of hours to carefully refute and correct all you misunderstandings.. Like that fucking street struts with 150mm travel and virtually no damping force is somehow suitable? and I am going to that WHY?

Sorry, not going to happen.. The way I teach is by asking series of questions---for which obviously I have a good idea of the answer---and you answer everything with a ? behind it...
The carefully selected questions---gleaned from 30 years of this car BS and 24 years of serious motorcycle racing (there's some overlap)---leads the novice thru a process..

You answer less than 1 in 20 questions and you construct your questions a as trying to guide "us" to some "Road to Damascus" revelation....Lawdy Lawdy I dun see'd da light! Tahnk Yew baby Jeezuz I now know a Colt Vista is better than a Misterbitchy Gaylant!

Ain't happening.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2015 03:15AM by john vanlandingham.
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tdrrally
edward mucklow
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 06:18AM
why is it such an issue for some folks to want to do something with a car that is not fia homologated to other folks ?

i may back burner my fox chassis and start working on my jeep xj.

it looks to me like the argument has been trumped with stated facts that the vista has the same basic suspension on the front as the gvr4 and nearly the same rear as many competitive cars from years gone by. the limits in travel are the limits

the chassis itself is the only real veritable here. that should be helped with a good cage

the beautiful thing about rallying in this country is , you don't have to play by fia rules


help the man with his questions or leave it alone!

i would like to see some proactive discussion here not pissing up a rope



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2015 06:43AM by tdrrally.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 09:33AM
Quote
tdrrally
why is it such an issue for some folks to want to do something with a car that is not fia homologated to other folks ?

i may back burner my fox chassis and start working on my jeep xj.

it looks to me like the argument has been trumped with stated facts that the vista has the same basic suspension on the front as the gvr4 and nearly the same rear as many competitive cars from years gone by. the limits in travel are the limits

the chassis itself is the only real veritable here. that should be helped with a good cage

the beautiful thing about rallying in this country is , you don't have to play by fia rules


help the man with his questions or leave it alone!

i would like to see some proactive discussion here not pissing up a rope

We are TRYING to leave it alone..
I think YOU should help him.. You know and read so well..
I love how you figured out the hidden agenda to force everybody into FIA spec cars..Dang you caught us.
You're way smarter than us.

So you are the one now, answer his questioner.
Its all the same...



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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tdrrally
edward mucklow
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 10:16AM
my point is why worry about what sort of car someone is building

just help them build it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


instead of running them off



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 11:32AM
Quote
tdrrally
my point is why worry about what sort of car someone is building

just help them build it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


instead of running them off

You asked a question "why worry about what sort of car somebody is "building".

Answer:
because there is a limited amount of time and energy in life...and after 30 years of helping all kinds of people rather indiscriminately I have seen many many people fail to finish projects and that's even on really simple "builds"....

After 30 years of daily listening and daily helping people certain trends or patterns begin to be clear....these trends can be called "markers" or indicators...
In no particular order there are things like " I LIKE working on cars"
"I've been researching a lot"
"I want to do something unique"

"I want to build this because I have it"

"I know I'm not going to be competitive (despite zero experience in competition he knows in advance he won't be) so it doesn't matter if this ___________(fill in blank) is totally unsuitable and flat stupid, I'll learn a lot for the NEXT BUILD"---which never comes.

All those are indicators of something headed towards a dead end...

Now you tell me:
----->Why should I give away valuable time "just helping them build it" when there are many alarm bells going off that the project will be still-born, and importantly, the thinking time and writing time will potentially applicable to one vehicle, one person and of no interest or use to anybody else?


So it is clear from your determined arguments that YOU should take up the baton




and devote hours to helping this guy...don't work on your car, research, and help him prove his ideas are "sound" and that he's figured out that everybody else is mistaken--and a Colt Vista Mini-van is just the same, just as effective as a Lancia Delta Intergrale



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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tdrrally
edward mucklow
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 12:50PM
are you or anyone else being hurt by someone building a rally car you do not approve of?

that is the question you should ask your self



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!
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Mad Matt F
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 01:47PM
Quote
tdrrally
are you or anyone else being hurt by someone building a rally car you do not approve of?

that is the question you should ask your self

I doubt anybody would be "hurt"... But folks like Jason and John (etc), who pay the bills with this stuff, are not likely to put much effort into helping if they don't see a likely good result. What benefit is it to John to spend 100 hours typing out how to build a bitchin' mini bus rally car, if he never sells the rotting shell a set of suspension.

The odd thing here is Tim seems a tad bit more determined then the average lurker, and I think he's gonna build this thing anyway... and he may even finish it. But I would say he's an outlier in the population of "help me build my weirdomobile"

Tim, no "horses for courses" Come on man! winking smiley
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Mad Matt F
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 01:55PM
I'll back up my comment a bit...

If I came here now, asking for help to build the Justy. I would hope folks would say to me what they are to Tim.

I'm saddled with an oddball car. 10 yrs ago, we had a nearly spec class running, and there were blocks a plenty for $50 in the junkyard. It worked then. Now not so much. But I am laden with nearly 3 complete cars worth of drivetrain bits, and hours of time invested in building. It's hard to throw all that away, when right now, at this stage in my life, trying to build "another car" just isn't in the picture.

Tim, take that into account... how old are you? do you have kids? Are you willing in 10 years, when you still want to rally, but have no $, and no time, continue to wrench on this beast. Because 10 yrs ago, no way would I have thought I'd still be wrenching on the Justy... Life changes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2015 01:55PM by Mad Matt F.
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tdrrally
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 04:24PM
using all the dsm and evo bits in the future he can transfer those to a different platform
like a 4-5g mirage evo1-6.5 or a lancer evo 7-9

or go real crazy and use an oulander (lancer)

i will say i quit watching the wrc years ago, it got boring as Walter Röhrl predicted so many years ago.

i like my awd car for safely getting to work and the like , but its boring to play in

tim keep on trucking !



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!
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NoCoast
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 05:37PM
Didn't this topic start out as a "I want to make my car have a cage so it's safe on roads when I'm driving like a loon and maybe someday if I decide to rally it?"
And wasn't there a fairly resounding, "do not cage a street car for any reason, if you want to drive like a loon on the public roads you should be a man and take that responsibility on yourself."

Then it denigrated into, "why this car would or would not be a good rally car..."
I say build it if you think it will be awesome. It probably won't be but who cares. Statistically speaking you'll just do an event or two and then disappear most likely so let's help you do that first event as easily and cheaply as we can.
Is that what you want to do? Compete? Or are you just here to kill time and theorize?



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john vanlandingham
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 05:39PM
Quote
tdrrally
are you or anyone else being hurt by someone building a rally car you do not approve of?

that is the question you should ask your self
It is a very silly rhetorical question.

Obviously aside from wasting time trying to help this poor misguided guy nobody will be hurt in any way.

Except the guy himself when that ol' nasty reality kicks him in the face...

Further accentuating how silly the question is it is not a matter of "that you (I) don't approve of",
try and bear in mind Andre's shocking real statistic or 27% of noobs do one event and quit.
And 43% do 3 events and are gone..

Who does that help? Does it help them with today's cage and prep costs--do not answer with the knee jerk platitude "its their money they can spend it any way they want".. That is obvious, nobody says they can't.
But who benefits from persuing obviously dead end and/or dumb ideas?
"The sport"?
Organisers?
The person them selves?

Nobody...

Whatever, you can tell him all he needs to know, you have decided you know what's best so get on it.



John Vanlandingham
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 05:44PM
Quote
NoCoast
Didn't this topic start out as a "I want to make my car have a cage so it's safe on roads when I'm driving like a loon and maybe someday if I decide to rally it?"
And wasn't there a fairly resounding, "do not cage a street car for any reason, if you want to drive like a loon on the public roads you should be a man and take that responsibility on yourself."

Then it denigrated into, "why this car would or would not be a good rally car..."
I say build it if you think it will be awesome. It probably won't be but who cares. Statistically speaking you'll just do an event or two and then disappear most likely so let's help you do that first event as easily and cheaply as we can.
Is that what you want to do? Compete? Or are you just here to kill time and theorize?

Denigrate is a word exclusively by Right wing extremists and Liba-farians only on forums when they need to sound butt-hurt when people show what buffoons they are..

Quote

denigrate (v.) Look up denigrate at Dictionary.com
1520s, from Latin denigratus, past participle of denigrare "to blacken, defame," from de- "completely" (see de-) + nigr-, stem of niger "black" (see Negro). which is of unknown origin. "Apparently disused in 18th c. and revived in 19th c." [OED]. Related: Denigrated; denigrating.
slag (v.) Look up slag at Dictionary.com
"denigrate," by 1971, from slag (n.) in a secondary sense of "worthless person" (1788). Related: Slagged; slagging.
denigration (n.) Look up denigration at Dictionary.com
early 15c., from Late Latin denigrationem (nominative denigratio), noun of action from past participle stem of Latin denigrare (see denigrate).

I would suggest "ass-ploded down the drain"...clearer, more natural..



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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