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Introduction / 4 seater cage question

Posted by timiacobucci 
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Age: Ancient
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Saab 96 V4



Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 05:49PM
Quote
Mad Matt F
I'll back up my comment a bit...

If I came here now, asking for help to build the Justy. I would hope folks would say to me what they are to Tim.

I'm saddled with an oddball car. 10 yrs ago, we had a nearly spec class running, and there were blocks a plenty for $50 in the junkyard. It worked then. Now not so much. But I am laden with nearly 3 complete cars worth of drivetrain bits, and hours of time invested in building. It's hard to throw all that away, when right now, at this stage in my life, trying to build "another car" just isn't in the picture.

Tim, take that into account... how old are you? do you have kids? Are you willing in 10 years, when you still want to rally, but have no $, and no time, continue to wrench on this beast. Because 10 yrs ago, no way would I have thought I'd still be wrenching on the Justy... Life changes.

Yep time marches on.
This aren't the same since they changed.

There was a time when converting a Xratty RWD to Cossie powered AWD seemed to make sense.
Not now, not with the flood of people with williness to sped 100G on their blue Subies to go to local ebevnts...

That stuff you described is what I warn people about the importance of careful intitial choice, cause soon enough you'll have so much whatever specific junk-n-stuff that youse dun married that car.

Thank goodness the Cossie 4x4 is so readily converted to a nice simple funner-er RWD car, all bolt in.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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CALL +1 206 431-9696
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tdrrally
edward mucklow
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ford mustang LX 5.0, 1973 VW Beetle



Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 06:17PM
that is why i'm working on a Lego car mustang less money more fun
if i get serious i may put a 2.5 turbo in it or 3.8 v6

lets help the man with his project to be the best it can for the sake of the project



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Saab 96 V4



Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 06:53PM
Quote
tdrrally
that is why i'm working on a Lego car mustang less money more fun
if i get serious i may put a 2.5 turbo in it or 3.8 v6

lets help the man with his project to be the best it can for the sake of the project

Go ahead. Nobody is stopping you.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
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NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Merkur



Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 07:41PM
Quote
timiacobucci
It is a 4 door 4 seater, ideally I am wondering if there is anyways to build a 4 seater rally cage.

Obviously a traditional 253-35C cage would get in the way quite a bit for rear passengers or longer cargo.

My idea/question/proposition is this.



I have a few questions about this suggestion.

For the first question, no, there is no real practical way to build a 4 seater rally cage.
Now you could build it with a roof X or V that goes to middle of windshield bar (253-12 or 13) and then you aren't required anything in the back except the rear back stays. Build those far out and up and perhaps you can get the back seat and a person or two back there. Since additional cage elements are optional you could do a second main hoop but you need the minimum RULE specs to start and that means 253-35c plus a sill bar.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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timiacobucci
Tim Iacobucci
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Location: Orlando FL
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90 Plymouth Colt Vista


Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 08:38PM
Quote
NoCoast
For the first question, no, there is no real practical way to build a 4 seater rally cage.
Now you could build it with a roof X or V that goes to middle of windshield bar (253-12 or 13) and then you aren't required anything in the back except the rear back stays. Build those far out and up and perhaps you can get the back seat and a person or two back there. Since additional cage elements are optional you could do a second main hoop but you need the minimum RULE specs to start and that means 253-35c plus a sill bar.

Thanks for the info man. I did already come to my own conclusion that there was no way a 4 seater was going to be fia compliant. I did think with the rear supports being optional other than the main back stays perhaps a central 3rd seat could be possible but I don't even think it's worth the trouble or compromises.

Has anyone done bolt in rear reinforcement, I see it's legal in fia rules and yet I don't see any real world examples of it.

Any minimum height requirement for the blue section, the front upper door x height?
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alkun
Albert Kun
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Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 08:52PM
So now is this going to be a rally car or not? At first it was no but maybe someday, now it seems like yes.

If so, you should be building to the rules of NASA Rallysport and Rally America, which are based on fia, but a bit more specific. Maybe check oot CARS rules too, in case you go do a rally in Canadia.

Also be aware that for Rally America events, you cannot run a turbo awd car until you have done a number of events. (if you are actually planning on doing rallys, read the rules of the rallys you might do)


Also, what is the need for the back seats? You aren't going to take granny to church in this thing, are you?
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Saab 96 V4



Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 09:00PM
Quote
timiacobucci
Quote
NoCoast
For the first question, no, there is no real practical way to build a 4 seater rally cage.
Now you could build it with a roof X or V that goes to middle of windshield bar (253-12 or 13) and then you aren't required anything in the back except the rear back stays. Build those far out and up and perhaps you can get the back seat and a person or two back there. Since additional cage elements are optional you could do a second main hoop but you need the minimum RULE specs to start and that means 253-35c plus a sill bar.

Thanks for the info man. I did already come to my own conclusion that there was no way a 4 seater was going to be fia compliant. I did think with the rear supports being optional other than the main back stays perhaps a central 3rd seat could be possible but I don't even think it's worth the trouble or compromises.

Has anyone done bolt in rear reinforcement, I see it's legal in fia rules and yet I don't see any real world examples of it.

Any minimum height requirement for the blue section, the front upper door x height?

There are many things which are legal under FIA rules and done or have been done elsewhere.
But this is America.
The people that "interpret" the FIA rules for the 2 US organisations here are well hate to say it but as convinced of their reading is the One Way... as you are, and listen almost exactly as well as well...
Wait that;'s it, you should become a Rally America scrutineer, then you can approve anything you want, just pick and choose what you want to, just like they do!



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
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is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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timiacobucci
Tim Iacobucci
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Location: Orlando FL
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90 Plymouth Colt Vista


Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 10:11PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
What education do you have? Public or private schooling?
You seem to have the "wannabe injur-near" vibe

Public high school, didn't finish and got a ged. Got a degree in computer animation and later decided I liked working with my hands much more than sitting at a computer all day. Judge that as you wish but I've taught myself a whole lot since then. One of the main things I've specialized in is automatic transmission rebuilds and custom engine management stuff. I guess I will say guilty as charged on the wannabe engineer vibe. I certainly have had no training as an engineer but I do respect the logic and thought that goes into the process.

The application of science and mathematics by which the properties of matter and the sources of energy in nature are made useful to people

It's a very broad term, people tend to define it by college degrees but the entire discussion and content of the construction zone section here is all engineering. By that definition how many times have you applied it? Relative to this discussion and your work John I would define you as an engineer.

Quote
john vanlandingham
How much you pay for your schooling?

The $ would be hard to define, lots and lots of reading and time put in apprenticing with experienced people and just plain practice. Sort of a personal question isn't it? Not sure where you are going with that when all I'm asking are technical questions relative to rally theory.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Sorry, not going to happen.. The way I teach is by asking series of questions---for which obviously I have a good idea of the answer---and you answer everything with a ? behind it...

Ok now we are getting somewhere, I think this is the crux our communication breakdown. We have a crosswise learning/teaching style. I learn by asking questions, you teach by asking questions.

Quote
You answer less than 1 in 20 questions
You answer less than 1 in 20 questions

What have I not answered?

I have tried really hard to be respectful and answer all the questions anyone has asked. What have I not answered that you have asked? Some are obviously more open ended and I'm still researching them but I've also come back with the information and conclusions I've come up with so far. For example what are the REASONS why you don't see minivan chassis in competitive rally? I'm not sure where else to follow that at this point to be honest and I've explained all my reasoning and conclusions. I guess ask me more questions to point me in the direction of what it is I am missing still.

Quote
john vanlandingham
And wait, I'm supposed to invest hundreds of hours to carefully refute and correct all you misunderstandings.. Like that fucking street struts with 150mm travel and virtually no damping force is somehow suitable? and I am going to that WHY?

Please read what I actually wrote, you keep accusing me of arguments I've never made,

Quote
timiacobucci
Unrelated to rally rate selection, just as a relative comparison of the actual chassis worthiness

I never said stock dsm/galant suspension was any good for rally, it was just a relative evaluation vs the galant/ dsm. If I had started with either of those none of this derailed debate would have developed. It's relevant and relative but not specific to rally suspension.

I'm not asking you to refute stuff damn it, invest what you deem worthy of your time, that's all any of use are doing on here. I was only posting the information because you specifically questioned it's source. I am showing it to try and explain my reasoning. If you were asking these open ended question to teach me these are my answers. If it were a class and you a real teacher calling out my sources would be just that, so I am providing my sources. You don't need to refute anything, just tell me where my mistakes are.

Quote
john vanlandingham
In no particular order there are things like " I LIKE working on cars"
"I've been researching a lot"
"I want to do something unique"
"I want to build this because I have it"


First off I never said any of these things save one. I only even said I like wrench in response to a direct question with that as an option. Even at that I tempered it in saying most of the parts I would need are dsm/galant/3000 gt compatible.

Second off this is too black and white and judgmental. Look at it the other way, what if someone came on here and said this,

Hey guys I'm new here,
" I DON"T LIKE working on cars"
"I have not been researching at all"
"I do not want to do something unique"
"I want to build something I do no have"

How would you respond to that?

Quote
john vanlandingham
"I know I'm not going to be competitive (despite zero experience in competition he knows in advance he won't be) so it doesn't matter if this ___________(fill in blank) is totally unsuitable and flat stupid, I'll learn a lot for the NEXT BUILD"---which never comes.

So you guys argue it's very hard to get into this sport at all and especially hard to be competitive with your first car and little experience and yet acknowledging the reality of that is a bad thing?

I can understand if these arguments are being used specifically for not directly addressing why a particular chassis is a good selection or not. I have never directly avoided questions about my selection based on any of these reasons.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Why should I give away valuable time "just helping them build it" when there are many alarm bells going off that the project will be still-born, and importantly, the thinking time and writing time will potentially applicable to one vehicle, one person and of no interest or use to anybody else?

It will not be still born. I've completed projects many people thought would fail, I really don't care if anyone here believes in it but I thought showing some of the actual work I've done might be helpful in taking it seriously. It's not some half assed idea, it's already well underway and I will finish it.

Much of the discussion about the vista is directly applicable to dsms and galants.

Further more you and the other judgmental bunch are the ones that got us here. Did I come here asking for a critical evaluation of my chassis selection or did I ask for advice on fia roll cage construction? I am just following the path you lead me down, and now you are asking me to justify it.

Quote
John Vanlandingham
and devote hours to helping this guy...don't work on your car, research, and help him prove his ideas are "sound" and that he's figured out that everybody else is mistaken--and a Colt Vista Mini-van is just the same, just as effective as a Lancia Delta Intergrale

I never asked anyone to devote anything to me. Add what advice you will and I will be grateful. As I have said if it were not for my current away from home situation I would be working on my junk, not talking on here. I would encourage anyone else to do the same. Again I NEVER said it was just as effective as a delta. YOU suggested it was the dimensions of the car that make it a poor choice. That is how we got here. It's almost identical to an evo or galant DIMENSIONALLY and relatively close to a lancia delta in overall construction and layout. Stop misconstruing what I have said.

Quote
tdrrally
But folks like Jason and John (etc), who pay the bills with this stuff, are not likely to put much effort into helping if they don't see a likely good result. What benefit is it to John to spend 100 hours typing out how to build a bitchin' mini bus rally car, if he never sells the rotting shell a set of suspension.

I only add this here now because it does seem directly relevant. IF I get to the level of stage rally with this car I would want a better suspension. If I've already adapted to the galant suspension there is stuff to sell for that. It's an important point. This is part of why I asked if we could skip past the chassis debate and discuss it like a galant.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Quote
tdrrally
are you or anyone else being hurt by someone building a rally car you do not approve of?

that is the question you should ask your self
It is a very silly rhetorical question.

Obviously aside from wasting time trying to help this poor misguided guy nobody will be hurt in any way.

Except the guy himself when that ol' nasty reality kicks him in the face...

Further accentuating how silly the question is it is not a matter of "that you (I) don't approve of",
try and bear in mind Andre's shocking real statistic or 27% of noobs do one event and quit.
And 43% do 3 events and are gone..

Who does that help? Does it help them with today's cage and prep costs--do not answer with the knee jerk platitude "its their money they can spend it any way they want".. That is obvious, nobody says they can't.
But who benefits from persuing obviously dead end and/or dumb ideas?
"The sport"?
Organisers?
The person them selves?

Nobody...

Whatever, you can tell him all he needs to know, you have decided you know what's best so get on it.

Edward I do appreciate my defense relative to being on the receiving end John's sarcasm and wit, but if you look past his tone to what he is saying here, he really DOES have good intentions. His arguments are to HELP me, he doesn't want to see me waste my time and effort in a dead end. While I disagree it's a dead end, I do appreciate his intention. I don't think it's hurting him, my arguments might be irritating him, but my build isn't hurting him.
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timiacobucci
Tim Iacobucci
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Location: Orlando FL
Join Date: 02/23/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 48

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90 Plymouth Colt Vista


Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 10:15PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
There are many things which are legal under FIA rules and done or have been done elsewhere.
But this is America.
The people that "interpret" the FIA rules for the 2 US organisations here are well hate to say it but as convinced of their reading is the One Way

Ok so what will they say about this shit? Who are they and how can I determine what is kosher before I put it in steel?

Quote
john vanlandingham
... as you are, and listen almost exactly as well as well...

You can be irritating the bejesus out of me then say some shit like that and crack me up man, as well as well....
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timiacobucci
Tim Iacobucci
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Location: Orlando FL
Join Date: 02/23/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 48

Rally Car:
90 Plymouth Colt Vista


Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 10:23PM
Quote
alkun
So now is this going to be a rally car or not? At first it was no but maybe someday, now it seems like yes.

If so, you should be building to the rules of NASA Rallysport and Rally America, which are based on fia, but a bit more specific. Maybe check oot CARS rules too, in case you go do a rally in Canadia.

Also be aware that for Rally America events, you cannot run a turbo awd car until you have done a number of events. (if you are actually planning on doing rallys, read the rules of the rallys you might do)


Also, what is the need for the back seats? You aren't going to take granny to church in this thing, are you?

It's was never going to be a 100% rally car. Drag mainly which is my forte, but I would like to try it in road racing and try it in some rally stuff if I can get all the details for that worked out. I have read the rally america rulebook recently and the NASA one a while ago but I will look it up again. I will check out CARS too when I get time to.

I've pretty much nixed the back seats. It was just a fun thought but I see the impracticality of it.

This is probably a entire discussion unto itself but can I run an awd car fwd? There is a shifter to engage the rear output in the transmission, could I somehow prove I've locked it out of awd and run fwd? Or lockout out the center viscous with a solid spacer and remove the front cv axles to run rwd?
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,998

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 10:34PM
Quote
timiacobucci
Quote
john vanlandingham
There are many things which are legal under FIA rules and done or have been done elsewhere.
But this is America.
The people that "interpret" the FIA rules for the 2 US organisations here are well hate to say it but as convinced of their reading is the One Way

Ok so what will they say about this shit? Who are they and how can I determine what is kosher before I put it in steel?

Quote
john vanlandingham
... as you are, and listen almost exactly as well as well...

You can be irritating the bejesus out of me then say some shit like that and crack me up man, as well as well....

Don't take anything a like real mean, that is not the intention...
Was that your piccie i found on that job site? Linkedwhatever?



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
timiacobucci
Tim Iacobucci
Mega Moderator
Location: Orlando FL
Join Date: 02/23/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 48

Rally Car:
90 Plymouth Colt Vista


Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 02, 2015 10:43PM
Quote
Mad Matt F
The odd thing here is Tim seems a tad bit more determined then the average lurker, and I think he's gonna build this thing anyway... and he may even finish it. But I would say he's an outlier in the population of "help me build my weirdomobile"

Tim, no "horses for courses" Come on man! winking smiley

Thanks! I think that might be the biggest compliment I've received here so far.

Quote
Mad Matt F
I'll back up my comment a bit...

If I came here now, asking for help to build the Justy. I would hope folks would say to me what they are to Tim.

I'm saddled with an oddball car. 10 yrs ago, we had a nearly spec class running, and there were blocks a plenty for $50 in the junkyard. It worked then. Now not so much. But I am laden with nearly 3 complete cars worth of drivetrain bits, and hours of time invested in building. It's hard to throw all that away, when right now, at this stage in my life, trying to build "another car" just isn't in the picture.

Tim, take that into account... how old are you? do you have kids? Are you willing in 10 years, when you still want to rally, but have no $, and no time, continue to wrench on this beast. Because 10 yrs ago, no way would I have thought I'd still be wrenching on the Justy... Life changes.

This makes allot of sense, and I think it is the crux of what John has been telling me this whole time as well.

I am 31, I am not married and have no children. It seems to me if my life changes dramatically I would rather have a car i enjoy working on that I cannot afford to really race often than to have a car I am less interested in that would cost a bit less to race a bit more. I don't honestly think the parts for this car as I am building it will be expensive or hard to find though. Dsms are notoriously the cheapest cars in the land.

I would have to actually try a stage rally to see if that "other car" is even worth it to me. I realize everyone here is dedicated to this sport and looks at it from that perspective. Maybe the people that try it once or twice and never return just don't have the passion for it relative to the investment it requires. I can't say how I will feel until I actually do it. Within the scope of my other goals this is the most realistic way for me to actually try rally. If I never do that's ok. If I do and don't go any further with it, that's ok too. If I try it and I'm hooked maybe I will make concessions in other areas and build a more dedicated car in the future. I am building this car now regardless, I just came here to learn exactly what would be required to incorporate the necessary components, mainly cage and safety stuff, into the build that I am already doing.

Quote
NoCoast
Is that what you want to do? Compete? Or are you just here to kill time and theorize?

I would like to try at least 1 stage rally with this car, I intend to build it as best I can but also expect it's performance to be compromised and I realize expecting it to actually be competitive would be sort of outlandish. I need much more experience building and tuning a car for rally and especially driving to actually expect to compete. I am only here now because I wanted to learn more about the cage and safety specifics while I am unable to actually keep working on the car.
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tdrrally
edward mucklow
Super Moderator
Location: charleston,wv
Join Date: 05/31/2011
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 736

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ford mustang LX 5.0, 1973 VW Beetle



Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 03, 2015 06:36AM
Quote
timiacobucci
Quote
john vanlandingham
What education do you have? Public or private schooling?
You seem to have the "wannabe injur-near" vibe

Public high school, didn't finish and got a ged. Got a degree in computer animation and later decided I liked working with my hands much more than sitting at a computer all day. Judge that as you wish but I've taught myself a whole lot since then. One of the main things I've specialized in is automatic transmission rebuilds and custom engine management stuff. I guess I will say guilty as charged on the wannabe engineer vibe. I certainly have had no training as an engineer but I do respect the logic and thought that goes into the process.

The application of science and mathematics by which the properties of matter and the sources of energy in nature are made useful to people

It's a very broad term, people tend to define it by college degrees but the entire discussion and content of the construction zone section here is all engineering. By that definition how many times have you applied it? Relative to this discussion and your work John I would define you as an engineer.

Quote
john vanlandingham
How much you pay for your schooling?

The $ would be hard to define, lots and lots of reading and time put in apprenticing with experienced people and just plain practice. Sort of a personal question isn't it? Not sure where you are going with that when all I'm asking are technical questions relative to rally theory.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Sorry, not going to happen.. The way I teach is by asking series of questions---for which obviously I have a good idea of the answer---and you answer everything with a ? behind it...

Ok now we are getting somewhere, I think this is the crux our communication breakdown. We have a crosswise learning/teaching style. I learn by asking questions, you teach by asking questions.

Quote
You answer less than 1 in 20 questions
You answer less than 1 in 20 questions

What have I not answered?

I have tried really hard to be respectful and answer all the questions anyone has asked. What have I not answered that you have asked? Some are obviously more open ended and I'm still researching them but I've also come back with the information and conclusions I've come up with so far. For example what are the REASONS why you don't see minivan chassis in competitive rally? I'm not sure where else to follow that at this point to be honest and I've explained all my reasoning and conclusions. I guess ask me more questions to point me in the direction of what it is I am missing still.

Quote
john vanlandingham
And wait, I'm supposed to invest hundreds of hours to carefully refute and correct all you misunderstandings.. Like that fucking street struts with 150mm travel and virtually no damping force is somehow suitable? and I am going to that WHY?

Please read what I actually wrote, you keep accusing me of arguments I've never made,

Quote
timiacobucci
Unrelated to rally rate selection, just as a relative comparison of the actual chassis worthiness

I never said stock dsm/galant suspension was any good for rally, it was just a relative evaluation vs the galant/ dsm. If I had started with either of those none of this derailed debate would have developed. It's relevant and relative but not specific to rally suspension.

I'm not asking you to refute stuff damn it, invest what you deem worthy of your time, that's all any of use are doing on here. I was only posting the information because you specifically questioned it's source. I am showing it to try and explain my reasoning. If you were asking these open ended question to teach me these are my answers. If it were a class and you a real teacher calling out my sources would be just that, so I am providing my sources. You don't need to refute anything, just tell me where my mistakes are.

Quote
john vanlandingham
In no particular order there are things like " I LIKE working on cars"
"I've been researching a lot"
"I want to do something unique"
"I want to build this because I have it"


First off I never said any of these things save one. I only even said I like wrench in response to a direct question with that as an option. Even at that I tempered it in saying most of the parts I would need are dsm/galant/3000 gt compatible.

Second off this is too black and white and judgmental. Look at it the other way, what if someone came on here and said this,

Hey guys I'm new here,
" I DON"T LIKE working on cars"
"I have not been researching at all"
"I do not want to do something unique"
"I want to build something I do no have"

How would you respond to that?

Quote
john vanlandingham
"I know I'm not going to be competitive (despite zero experience in competition he knows in advance he won't be) so it doesn't matter if this ___________(fill in blank) is totally unsuitable and flat stupid, I'll learn a lot for the NEXT BUILD"---which never comes.

So you guys argue it's very hard to get into this sport at all and especially hard to be competitive with your first car and little experience and yet acknowledging the reality of that is a bad thing?

I can understand if these arguments are being used specifically for not directly addressing why a particular chassis is a good selection or not. I have never directly avoided questions about my selection based on any of these reasons.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Why should I give away valuable time "just helping them build it" when there are many alarm bells going off that the project will be still-born, and importantly, the thinking time and writing time will potentially applicable to one vehicle, one person and of no interest or use to anybody else?

It will not be still born. I've completed projects many people thought would fail, I really don't care if anyone here believes in it but I thought showing some of the actual work I've done might be helpful in taking it seriously. It's not some half assed idea, it's already well underway and I will finish it.

Much of the discussion about the vista is directly applicable to dsms and galants.

Further more you and the other judgmental bunch are the ones that got us here. Did I come here asking for a critical evaluation of my chassis selection or did I ask for advice on fia roll cage construction? I am just following the path you lead me down, and now you are asking me to justify it.

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John Vanlandingham
and devote hours to helping this guy...don't work on your car, research, and help him prove his ideas are "sound" and that he's figured out that everybody else is mistaken--and a Colt Vista Mini-van is just the same, just as effective as a Lancia Delta Intergrale

I never asked anyone to devote anything to me. Add what advice you will and I will be grateful. As I have said if it were not for my current away from home situation I would be working on my junk, not talking on here. I would encourage anyone else to do the same. Again I NEVER said it was just as effective as a delta. YOU suggested it was the dimensions of the car that make it a poor choice. That is how we got here. It's almost identical to an evo or galant DIMENSIONALLY and relatively close to a lancia delta in overall construction and layout. Stop misconstruing what I have said.

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tdrrally
But folks like Jason and John (etc), who pay the bills with this stuff, are not likely to put much effort into helping if they don't see a likely good result. What benefit is it to John to spend 100 hours typing out how to build a bitchin' mini bus rally car, if he never sells the rotting shell a set of suspension.

I only add this here now because it does seem directly relevant. IF I get to the level of stage rally with this car I would want a better suspension. If I've already adapted to the galant suspension there is stuff to sell for that. It's an important point. This is part of why I asked if we could skip past the chassis debate and discuss it like a galant.

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john vanlandingham
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tdrrally
are you or anyone else being hurt by someone building a rally car you do not approve of?

that is the question you should ask your self
It is a very silly rhetorical question.

Obviously aside from wasting time trying to help this poor misguided guy nobody will be hurt in any way.

Except the guy himself when that ol' nasty reality kicks him in the face...

Further accentuating how silly the question is it is not a matter of "that you (I) don't approve of",
try and bear in mind Andre's shocking real statistic or 27% of noobs do one event and quit.
And 43% do 3 events and are gone..

Who does that help? Does it help them with today's cage and prep costs--do not answer with the knee jerk platitude "its their money they can spend it any way they want".. That is obvious, nobody says they can't.
But who benefits from persuing obviously dead end and/or dumb ideas?
"The sport"?
Organisers?
The person them selves?

Nobody...

Whatever, you can tell him all he needs to know, you have decided you know what's best so get on it.

Edward I do appreciate my defense relative to being on the receiving end John's sarcasm and wit, but if you look past his tone to what he is saying here, he really DOES have good intentions. His arguments are to HELP me, he doesn't want to see me waste my time and effort in a dead end. While I disagree it's a dead end, I do appreciate his intention. I don't think it's hurting him, my arguments might be irritating him, but my build isn't hurting him.

i have nothing but respect for for john , that doesn't mean i have to agree with him all the time

i believe in freedom of choice and your right to build what you want, its your time and money.

if you do get serious about a rally car build a 2wd something that is near stock and go from there. i had some great time in nearly stock rally cars little money and little ego, and i still beat folks with more of both.

let me know if i can help. the idea of and awd vista powersliding around the tail of the dragon brings a good light to my soul.

keep on trucking



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!
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johnhuebbe
John Huebbe
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Location: St. Peters, MO
Join Date: 08/31/2012
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Posts: 283

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1970 VW Beetle & 1991 Subaru Legacy


Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 03, 2015 04:03PM
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Dexter
Dexter Clark
Professional Moderator
Location: Hemlock, MI
Join Date: 12/28/2014
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Posts: 26

Rally Car:
Rally all of the things


Re: Introduction / 4 seater cage question
March 08, 2015 12:20PM
This is one of the best threads I've stumbled upon anywhere in a long time. It's been a fun read so far.

Tim, I've never seen anyone on an automotive forum take this kind of abuse and not go into defensive attack mode and then promptly retreat. Good for you.

I'm going to continue off course since this has pretty much become a rally philosophy discussion.

Like has been alluded to all ready, the people telling you this whole mess is a bad idea are people who want everyone to be sustained competitors. I believe those statistics about the newbies. If you dragged it out to the number of events participated in it probably continues to follow that curve. If you go the other way and figure the amount of people who set out to build a rally car and then never even compete once is surely astronomical. I've set out multiple times to build a rally car and life happens and it barely gets off the ground.

It's been over ten years since the first time I decided I wanted to build a rally car and in all reality I'm no further along then when I started. I have learned a lot along the way and have taken steps to better prepare myself when the time is right. In the mean time, I have participated in other ways like co-driving and running heavy sweep among other things. I'm still determined to someday build a car and be competitive and sustainable, but it is not easy.

Over the years, I've come to think that most people in rally are not all that interested in project cars and turning wrenches. They're mostly interseted in rally racing. I don't really know how to better articulate it other than to say that rally racing is more fun than building rally cars. Yes they can turn wrenches and build things, but they'd rather not. That's why 95% of people are going to tell you to buy your first rally car instead of building your first rally car. Because the costs are huge.

Do you have any idea how much it costs to rally race? You'll be hard pressed to even sit in a competiton rally car for less than $1200 unless you borrow all the gear. Licensing, race suit, helmet, and H&NR cost at least $1200 minimum. Most two day rallies cost about $1000 to enter. That's one weekend. Plus travel costs, lodging, food, amenities for your crew, fuel during the race. Then after the race repairing the car because you'll most likely be breaking something. None of that even touches the cost of building and equipping a stage rally car. Cage, fire supression, intercom, odometers, spill kits, and tools. Do you have a trailer? Then there's the spares - so many wheels and tires and control arms and axles... Do you really want to spend $2000 on a race weekend just to DNF after stage 3?

I say build the thing. If you get along to participating and putting it on stage, great. If not, you probably wouldn't have rallied something else anyway. If you have technical questions about how to build a cage, you'd be better off getting in touch with scrutineers at RA or NASA - you can get general contact information from their perspective websites and they can get you the contacts you need. Alternatively you could get in touch with people who have experience building rally-spec cages like TRF or Broken Motorsports or any number of places. Find an FIA cage expert near you.

To go back on topic, if you truly want a 4-passenger safety cage, you'll never be rally legal because it just doesn't work with the FIA specs. Rally cars only ever have two people in them.

Anyway, as a former Mitsubishi enthusiast, I love what you've done so far and encourage you to continue because this will be awesome no matter what motorsport it will eventually participate in. You've got the smarts and the skills to make this happen, so just do it. It's just time and money, what else are you going to so with it?

Ultimately, all rally people need to decide what's most important: building rally cars, racing rally cars, or watching rally cars. You have to have the most skill, resources, and money to do the first one; you just need a lot of money to do the second one; and any one can do the third one.

Just my $0.02 worth of opinion on the matters at hand.
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