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1990 Mustang 5.0 Rally Build

Posted by Hambone1966 
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: 1990 Mustang 5.0 Rally Build
August 05, 2015 02:43PM
Quote
Aaron Luptak
Quote
tdrrally
look at the steeda four link
with an sn95 rear axle or disk brake set up

http://www.autotraderclassics.com/images/a/cms/48186/48186.jpg

http://www.steeda.com/steeda-mustang-5-link-rear-suspension-system-555-2501/

for $1300 it had better come with a 'happy ending'...

(for rally use, I'd be pretty skeptical of the bolt-on mounts for the new upper arms.)

Didn't even look at the price...ridiculous for a pile of shit...period

Doubly ridiculous that it was posted as something for a rally car on gravel.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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tdrrally
edward mucklow
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Re: 1990 Mustang 5.0 Rally Build
August 05, 2015 06:36PM
its a starting point not end of the road

we will see how it works , my mustang came with it



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!
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fiasco
Andrew Steere
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Re: 1990 Mustang 5.0 Rally Build
August 05, 2015 08:42PM
Quote
Aaron Luptak

for $1300 it had better come with a 'happy ending'...

(for rally use, I'd be pretty skeptical of the bolt-on mounts for the new upper arms.)

THAT IS A MAJOR INFRACTION. 21 POINTS. Which is Blackjack, you win!



Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY
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tdrrally
edward mucklow
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ford mustang LX 5.0, 1973 VW Beetle



Re: 1990 Mustang 5.0 Rally Build
August 06, 2015 05:55AM
the instructions do recommend you weld all the brackets after everything is in place

another option is the maximum motoursports torque arm
not cheap either
http://www.maximummotorsports.com/MM-Torque-arm-1979-04-Mustang-88-axle-Heavy-Duty-P222.aspx

or something like this
http://www.cjponyparts.com/upr-rear-upper-control-arm-kit-with-spherical-bearings-1979-2004/p/UCA14/



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!
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Fly-Half
Roderick Thomas
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Re: 1990 Mustang 5.0 Rally Build
August 06, 2015 09:06AM
Quote
tdrrally
the instructions do recommend you weld all the brackets after everything is in place

another option is the maximum motoursports torque arm
not cheap either
http://www.maximummotorsports.com/MM-Torque-arm-1979-04-Mustang-88-axle-Heavy-Duty-P222.aspx

or something like this
http://www.cjponyparts.com/upr-rear-upper-control-arm-kit-with-spherical-bearings-1979-2004/p/UCA14/

Stop...You're trolling too hard dude. Don't you see this guy is actually building something?

And as such might want real advice not how about every bit of shit junk in every mustang junk peddler?

Or if you want to keep trolling with thisd junk parts put the god damn price next to it so people don't have to click to see that you posted yet another fucking JOKE..$650

Do you have some compulsion to post junk parts? Or do you not understand they are junk scrap shit?

How about

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Lot-4-Coleman-UB-Machine-Swedge-Tube-Sleeve-1-2-3-4-5-8-Steel-25-26-/371266656489

$40

add some rod ends @ $16 each, some rubber rod ends like these for $18


Some of these
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-link-tabs-Set-of-4-2-75-axle-1-2-hole-1-4-plate-2-5-tall-/131570540762?hash=item1ea23720da&vxp=mtr



for $12.50 for 4

Some of these for $11 for 4 for the shocks


For $199.50 total.and then some spares.??
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Robert Culbertson
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Re: 1990 Mustang 5.0 Rally Build
August 06, 2015 09:14AM
Rod, the younger, better looking JVL!
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Aaron Luptak
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Re: 1990 Mustang 5.0 Rally Build
August 06, 2015 09:45AM
Quote
fiasco
Quote
Aaron Luptak

for $1300 it had better come with a 'happy ending'...

(for rally use, I'd be pretty skeptical of the bolt-on mounts for the new upper arms.)

THAT IS A MAJOR INFRACTION. 21 POINTS. Which is Blackjack, you win!

A major infraction?! Oh noes! sad smiley


Wait, I win? Sweet?! smiling bouncing smiley

(someone award this man an internet, or at least a rally-forum-sub-slice-of-the-internet)



KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com
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tdrrally
edward mucklow
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Re: 1990 Mustang 5.0 Rally Build
August 06, 2015 12:35PM
i do see he is building something, $200 in parts and how much in labor is the question?
at no point did i say go buy this stuff!
its more a base line a starting point or a direction to go

i plan to replace the steeda kit after it is shot with something along the lines above but until then it stays

i would rather spend the time and money running what i have than building
i'm looking at my car as late 85 groupe a or production car rather than an open unlimited budget car



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!
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Hambone1966
Jason Hamilton
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1990 Ford Mustang 5.0


Re: 1990 Mustang 5.0 Rally Build
August 06, 2015 01:46PM
Since I'm a beginner, I want to understand where you guys are coming from.

The kits that have been posted are called ridiculous - is it because they are too expensive for what they are/what they'll do? Is it because they won't handle a rally because they are made more for street applications? I look at these pictures and see shiny expensive stuff, but I'm not sure what the engineers had in mind with all of it. The STEEDA kit for instance- what is that connection to the differential for? Are all those bolts and adjustments going to be too weak for this kind of driving?

Basically, I need good shocks with better than stock travel, control arms with a better range of movement? Sway bar?



Jason Hamilton
Phoenix, Arizona

1990 Ford Mustang 5.0

It never troubles the wolf how many the sheep may be.
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555-2501-1.jpg
Aaron Luptak
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Re: 1990 Mustang 5.0 Rally Build
August 06, 2015 02:26PM
in my (by no means authoritative) opinion-
* sheer cost is a definite concern. Can you pay someone to fab up an escort-style setup for less than $1300? No idea. As others have pointed out, the raw parts don't total nearly that amount.
* I think anything that's targeted at Street or Road Racing will always have the "is it strong enough for rally?" question hanging over it.
* I'd guess that anything that's targeting specific classes that don't allow this-or-that (one mention of the Steeda setup being legal for SCCA's American Sedan road racing class for example) may be making some compromises to work around those rules. (Aside from the bozos in Pee or B-speck) most of those restrictions don't exist in R-A or NRS, so why spend more money for a design compromised to work around restrictions you don't have?

Building a mental model in my head of the OE Foxbody suspension, the upper links seem like they'd work against each other to get much axle movement. The steeda kit is better with the parallel upper arms, but I'm not convinced it's $1300 better - and concerned other parts may be weaker etc. After all, the stock(ish) parts worked for Hurst so who am I to argue? eye rolling smiley

Yeah, if somebody handed it to you for free, I'd definitely give it a shot. Spending my own cash? I'd probably plan on doing an escort-style 4-link, and run OE stuff in the interim if necessary.



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http://www.utahrallygroup.com
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Robert Culbertson
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Re: 1990 Mustang 5.0 Rally Build
August 06, 2015 06:30PM
Quote
Hambone1966
Since I'm a beginner, I want to understand where you guys are coming from.

The kits that have been posted are called ridiculous - is it because they are too expensive for what they are/what they'll do? Is it because they won't handle a rally because they are made more for street applications? I look at these pictures and see shiny expensive stuff, but I'm not sure what the engineers had in mind with all of it. The STEEDA kit for instance- what is that connection to the differential for? Are all those bolts and adjustments going to be too weak for this kind of driving?

Basically, I need good shocks with better than stock travel, control arms with a better range of movement? Sway bar?

It's an expensive bit of kit for what it is, but it's a near bolt on solution. Those that have more spare time and the ability, will scoff and just build their own.

As far as rally vs street/track driving.. it's hard to say what it will take on stage. I have no idea what size of material any of those links are, so it's a hard guess. They seem to be of sufficient diameter, but that's not the whole story.

The Steeda kit gets rid of the triangulated 4-link and goes to a more traditional 4-link with a panhard bar. The abomination bolted to the diff (and the right upper link mount) is the pivot for the panhard bar. The other end connects to a bracket on the drivers side frame. This is what is keeping the axle "centered" under the car. The kit does allow you to play with the roll-center height, and that's neat, but the influence of that may not be as big on dirt (I could also be completely wrong with that)).

Grant listed a quote from someone who actually rally raced a fox-body. The mods were minimal and realistic, with less fab work compared to going with a long 4-link setup.
Main issue with the triangulated 4-link is the weak lowers and the REALLY short uppers that all bind under suspension articulation and bump.

Quote
NoCoast
Hurst built his as follows:

Quote

From Hurst...

Strength-wise, the fox unibodies are pretty bad.


The strut towers must be reinforced and tied to the firewall or cage
The area where the "frame rail" portion of the underhood unibody terminates at the firewall must be reinforced with outriggers from the cage
The upper rear suspension mounts must be reinforced by outriggers from the main hoop, bolted though.
The lower rear suspension "torque boxes" must be reinforced by outriggers from the cage or weld-in subframe connectors, or both


Even with this all done, and the 351W based engine that added 150lbs over the 5.0, the car weighed the same as an SP Subaru.


If I had to do it over again, I would have stuck with the 5.0 based engine at about 375HP instead of the larger, heavier engine at 440.


Stock V8 front springs on the stock front arms with hard bushings and good moog ball joints. 12" 200lb coil over springs on the KYB adjustable struts, and a 4cyl front sway bar.


The rear suspension was stock geometry, the key was some trick experimental upper axle bushings from Ford. They were cast rubber instead of pressed. The OE pressed ones last about one stage, and the aftermarket hard bushings don't have enough give for what theses arms must do, and everything will break with hard bushings. For lower arms, I used drag race parts that had hard bushings on the axle end and heims on the body end. There was no axle hop with this set-up, but there was quite a bit with the stock parts.


The rear shock were Afco street-stock oval track shocks, with monroe replacement "traction shocks", cut down moog cargo-coil springs from the little LTD (Fox body) wagon, no rear sway bar.


I used Lincoln Mk7 front brakes and master cylinder, and Thunderbird turbo coupe rear rotors with GM metric RWD A-body front calipers on the rear with afco brackets and a pressure limiting bias control. The entire rear brake set-up cost $150 using new or factory rebuilt parts.

Seems like that would be a cheap and easy starting point and then you can get more proper once you have first or second rally out of the way.

I'm betting one of these will work for the rear lower control arms. Ebay has a lot of rear suspension parts for dirt cheap. The upper links still suck, but that can be remedied with longer links and boxes (or rear set brackets)
http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/item/UPR-200201/79-04-Mustang-UPR-Chrome-Moly-Adjustable-Lower-Control-Arms

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Massive-Lower-Control-Arms-LCA-Trailing-Rear-Mustang-79-98-Adjustable-SN95-Cobra-/261043539700?fits=Model%3AMustang



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2015 06:37PM by Robert Culbertson.
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tdrrally
edward mucklow
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ford mustang LX 5.0, 1973 VW Beetle



Re: 1990 Mustang 5.0 Rally Build
August 06, 2015 06:47PM
for the upper they make a mono ball that replaces the bushing
http://www.skinnykidracecars.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_full/bear05.jpg

http://www.ebay.com/itm/79-04-Mustang-GT-8-8-Axle-Spherical-Rear-Upper-Control-Arm-Bearing-Bushing-Kit-/221515697977?hash=item33935d4f39&vxp=mtr



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!
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tdrrally
edward mucklow
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ford mustang LX 5.0, 1973 VW Beetle



Re: 1990 Mustang 5.0 Rally Build
September 25, 2015 08:33AM
How is it going?



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!
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Stryker
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Re: 1990 Mustang 5.0 Rally Build
October 08, 2015 01:49PM
Quote
tdrrally
How is it going?

I believe the car was raced last weekend at Prescott Rally. I think I have a few pics of it on stage 1, don't remember seeing it on day two.
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Hambone1966
Jason Hamilton
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1990 Ford Mustang 5.0


Re: 1990 Mustang 5.0 Rally Build
October 08, 2015 01:51PM
Hey man, sorry to leave you hanging so long! I was too busy building the car to be on here. We were successful in that we made it to the rally, completed tech, and ran a couple of stages. There were too many little electrical gremlins that popped literally on race day... sigh. We didn't have the time to do a complete re-wire. This is the wrong thread for racing results, but its also a natural conclusion to a build thread I suppose.

The alternator wouldn't charge the battery, then while I worked on that the car wouldn't start anymore. I got all that fixed, then our fan died, then the alternator again. 25 year old wiring... all of our new circuits worked perfectly. We are starting a complete engine tear down and re-wire of the whole car. I'll make a new thread for that one as we get started.

The car ran great when we were running. The manual rack we put in worked great, it was easy to control, but I see what some were saying earlier in the thread about it being tougher to recover... if I had started to lose it, it could have been hard to get back. Might change to power. The winterforce tires we ran felt great. For travel, we couldn't afford/have time to do what everyone suggested, but we put in good shocks, soft springs, removed the front sway bar and put a stock LX one on back to replace the GT one. This year, our friends at American Motorsports are going to work on a custom suspension for it.

I had an absolute blast and I'm hooked. Everyone at the event was very nice and after some reluctance, even my wife was into it when it was over and fully supports me going next year.

Thanks to all you guys for the advice. I'll make a post of just pics here in a minute.

Jason



Jason Hamilton
Phoenix, Arizona

1990 Ford Mustang 5.0

It never troubles the wolf how many the sheep may be.
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