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Audi CQ Rally Build

Posted by dalspaugh 
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Ultra Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,994

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
October 21, 2015 08:42PM
Quote
dalspaugh
Quote
john vanlandingham
No stitch welding?
Half the reason you clean things well--well enough to put paint on ---is so you can do some quick stitchy-stitchy 1/2" weld.. modern car body shells are all thin thin and anything than can make a bodyshell last longer is a mitzvah

That is, of course, assuming the car will be used vigorously and that you are a privateer with limited resources to re-shell constantly.

As ususal, what da fuq do I know?

Hmm... I guess I didn't realize this was something people did on a budget build... but makes sense, it's not like you have to order any fancy things for it, just labor really...

In any case, it's not happening right now. Perhaps sometime in the future of the car.


Well it's one of those things that evidently isn't so obvious as to the importance for privateers..

And many say "I don't see the need"...

I say for us who must try and keep a shell as long as we can because of the expense of caging them---now that it must be caged like an 07 and later WRC car (because we were killing 100s and 100s of rally guys per event back when we had just say 2000 and earlier spec cages or even earlier with bolt in cages--with those you'd die just sitting in the car) that it becomes more important than even for the 1%ers who can flip and write off a car and just write a check for a new one.

Now I am fully aware that all the ex-spurts all say "Buy a prepped car and you'll be in the woods on stages sooner".. Talking anything against that is going against ever true Merikun's Gawd given right to instantly satisfy and whim--the solution for everything is of course right there in the advice: buy!
Cures everything..That's why America is the happiest country of all the induistrialised nations in the Hole Whirled.
So being about 50% Merikun by birth, I concede that delaying being on Stages is bad..it is against everything that made Merikuh great..

So, ever one to recogize my own errors and always looking to learn from my mistakes, over the years I've modded my advice from Ford's sterling advice-- interestingly enough Chapter 1, paragraph one, first line in both the old 70s Escort Rally Preparation book and 10 years later their masterpiece Sierra book where they say stitch weld ever seam and joint 1/2" weld every 1 1/2" (as soon as the cage is in--cage first, stitch second)..
Now I say "weld what you can when its convenient...you clean the inside in preparation to cage it, weld the inside. You have the engine and box out for some reason? Weld the engine compartment. Have the crossmember or suspension apart..Weld it then..."

Again this with the presumption that a person is going to rally the car and use it more than Ander's shocking "42% of noobs do 3 events and then disappear forever"......and use it with (more than we have seen typical in the last 15 years) some vigor.

Smrat peoples learn from mistakes and improve.
Smrater-er-er peeples learn from other people's mistakes.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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dalspaugh
David Alspaugh
Senior Moderator
Location: Boston, MA
Join Date: 04/30/2015
Age: Party Animal
Posts: 66

Rally Car:
'91 Audi Coupe Quattro


Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
October 29, 2015 07:43AM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Quote
dalspaugh
Quote
john vanlandingham
No stitch welding?
Half the reason you clean things well--well enough to put paint on ---is so you can do some quick stitchy-stitchy 1/2" weld.. modern car body shells are all thin thin and anything than can make a bodyshell last longer is a mitzvah

That is, of course, assuming the car will be used vigorously and that you are a privateer with limited resources to re-shell constantly.

As ususal, what da fuq do I know?

Hmm... I guess I didn't realize this was something people did on a budget build... but makes sense, it's not like you have to order any fancy things for it, just labor really...

In any case, it's not happening right now. Perhaps sometime in the future of the car.


Well it's one of those things that evidently isn't so obvious as to the importance for privateers..

And many say "I don't see the need"...

I say for us who must try and keep a shell as long as we can because of the expense of caging them---now that it must be caged like an 07 and later WRC car (because we were killing 100s and 100s of rally guys per event back when we had just say 2000 and earlier spec cages or even earlier with bolt in cages--with those you'd die just sitting in the car) that it becomes more important than even for the 1%ers who can flip and write off a car and just write a check for a new one.

Now I am fully aware that all the ex-spurts all say "Buy a prepped car and you'll be in the woods on stages sooner".. Talking anything against that is going against ever true Merikun's Gawd given right to instantly satisfy and whim--the solution for everything is of course right there in the advice: buy!
Cures everything..That's why America is the happiest country of all the induistrialised nations in the Hole Whirled.
So being about 50% Merikun by birth, I concede that delaying being on Stages is bad..it is against everything that made Merikuh great..

So, ever one to recogize my own errors and always looking to learn from my mistakes, over the years I've modded my advice from Ford's sterling advice-- interestingly enough Chapter 1, paragraph one, first line in both the old 70s Escort Rally Preparation book and 10 years later their masterpiece Sierra book where they say stitch weld ever seam and joint 1/2" weld every 1 1/2" (as soon as the cage is in--cage first, stitch second)..
Now I say "weld what you can when its convenient...you clean the inside in preparation to cage it, weld the inside. You have the engine and box out for some reason? Weld the engine compartment. Have the crossmember or suspension apart..Weld it then..."

Again this with the presumption that a person is going to rally the car and use it more than Ander's shocking "42% of noobs do 3 events and then disappear forever"......and use it with (more than we have seen typical in the last 15 years) some vigor.

Smrat peoples learn from mistakes and improve.
Smrater-er-er peeples learn from other people's mistakes.

I understand what you're saying John, absolutely. I want this car to last me for a long time and hold up well to the abuse. I'm quickly realizing the expense of this project and I haven't even really started to build anything yet!

I see the need, and I have the want to get in there in stitch weld and make this chassis extremely robust - but for now it'll have to wait. There's just not enough time to get it all done. Winter is coming here in NE and that'll mean an even slower pace than I'm already working at - who the hell wants to be in an unheated/uninsulated garage at 10-30 degrees? Now I understand people are working with less, and hats off to them...

Anyway, the car requires a ton more work and if I have any hope of making it to an event in '16 - even a rallyX, I better keep the pace up and the scope limited.



Blog about my history with the rally car written for non-automotive folk: davescq.wordpress.com
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dalspaugh
David Alspaugh
Senior Moderator
Location: Boston, MA
Join Date: 04/30/2015
Age: Party Animal
Posts: 66

Rally Car:
'91 Audi Coupe Quattro


Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
October 29, 2015 07:57AM
Still working on the wiring a bit. Replacing all my shitty masking tape labels with proper vinyl labels that can withstand the heat/conditions. I'm happy with how it's coming out but it's taking plenty of time! I'm also using a velcro wrap to simply hold the wires together while this harness is unproven. Once I flush out the bugs and get the wiring proven with the car running, I'll pull it out and dress it properly.

This is about 80% of it:


I've also started to look at how I"m going to run the external fuel pumps. For a while I was thinking about just installing a couple panel mount fittings on the top of the fuel sending unit plastic piece here:




It has a nice flat surface there with plenty of real estate for two fittings (supply/return) AND the lowest part of the tank resides directly below it so I could just drop a hose straight down for pick-up but it's just plastic. I'm worried that the first time someone throws a tire in the back of this thing, it'll smack the fitting and break that whole assembly... so likely not going that route unless I machined a piece out of aluminum to replace the upper part or something.

So back to just using the stock outputs underneath for now. Need to order the pumps, I'll likely go with 2 of these in parallel and run one at a time - more than enough capacity even on one pump for my 160 HP NA motor:
http://www.deatschwerks.com/products/fuel-pumps/in-line-fuel-pumps/dw250il-in-line-fuel-pump-detail



Blog about my history with the rally car written for non-automotive folk: davescq.wordpress.com
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Paddy1337
Tim Patrick
Mod Moderator
Location: Raleigh, NC
Join Date: 01/26/2011
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 175

Rally Car:
Galant VR-4


Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
October 29, 2015 10:23AM
I only mention this because it surprised me... but in NRS regulations, 3.24.6, you're only allowed to run 1 pump. A secondary is allowed as a back-up, but not as 2 in line or parallel. I think it's a dumb rule, and probably ignored in these days of E85, but just want to make sure you're aware.

"3.24.6 Secondary Fuel Pumps
The fitting of a second fuel pump is authorized, but this must be only
a spare fuel pump, i.e. it cannot operate in addition to the authorized
pump. It must be connectable by means of a purely mechanical
device situated beside the pumps. "

maybe yours is a back-up...
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Ultra Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,994

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
October 29, 2015 11:52AM
Quote
Paddy1337
I only mention this because it surprised me... but in NRS regulations, 3.24.6, you're only allowed to run 1 pump. A secondary is allowed as a back-up, but not as 2 in line or parallel. I think it's a dumb rule, and probably ignored in these days of E85, but just want to make sure you're aware.

"3.24.6 Secondary Fuel Pumps
The fitting of a second fuel pump is authorized, but this must be only
a spare fuel pump, i.e. it cannot operate in addition to the authorized
pump. It must be connectable by means of a purely mechanical
device situated beside the pumps. "

maybe yours is a back-up...

In the rally regs?
Shirley you're not serious.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
NoCoast
Grant Hughes
Junior Moderator
Location: Denver, CO
Join Date: 01/11/2006
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 6,740

Rally Car:
Merkur



Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
October 29, 2015 01:24PM
Quote
Paddy1337
I only mention this because it surprised me... but in NRS regulations, 3.24.6, you're only allowed to run 1 pump. A secondary is allowed as a back-up, but not as 2 in line or parallel. I think it's a dumb rule, and probably ignored in these days of E85, but just want to make sure you're aware.

"3.24.6 Secondary Fuel Pumps
The fitting of a second fuel pump is authorized, but this must be only
a spare fuel pump, i.e. it cannot operate in addition to the authorized
pump. It must be connectable by means of a purely mechanical
device situated beside the pumps. "

maybe yours is a back-up...

With a restrictor you'd never need the dual pump volume.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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dalspaugh
David Alspaugh
Senior Moderator
Location: Boston, MA
Join Date: 04/30/2015
Age: Party Animal
Posts: 66

Rally Car:
'91 Audi Coupe Quattro


Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
October 29, 2015 03:30PM
Quote
NoCoast
Quote
Paddy1337
I only mention this because it surprised me... but in NRS regulations, 3.24.6, you're only allowed to run 1 pump. A secondary is allowed as a back-up, but not as 2 in line or parallel. I think it's a dumb rule, and probably ignored in these days of E85, but just want to make sure you're aware.

"3.24.6 Secondary Fuel Pumps
The fitting of a second fuel pump is authorized, but this must be only
a spare fuel pump, i.e. it cannot operate in addition to the authorized
pump. It must be connectable by means of a purely mechanical
device situated beside the pumps. "

maybe yours is a back-up...

With a restrictor you'd never need the dual pump volume.

Yeah I definitely don't need the dual volume. I was planning on having both independently switched but both plumbed in so that in case of a failure you're only a flip of a switch away from running again. But I see that may not be happening after all!



Blog about my history with the rally car written for non-automotive folk: davescq.wordpress.com
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NoCoast
Grant Hughes
Junior Moderator
Location: Denver, CO
Join Date: 01/11/2006
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 6,740

Rally Car:
Merkur



Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
October 29, 2015 04:12PM
Oh, I just noticed the second part of the rule that they have to be manually changed and not switched. Seems kinda dumb but often rules in rulebooks are.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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Vfercho73
Fernando vitor
Infallible Moderator
Location: Rome Ga USA
Join Date: 11/03/2015
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 14

Rally Car:
1990 audi cq- 2014 Suzuki gran vitara


Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
November 03, 2015 07:54PM
New to this forum and happy to see another Crazy person building a coupe Quattro .
If you don't have the money but the skills , build your own suspension. Bilstein sells those universal struts for around $350 a pop.
Rally is and will never be cheap, if it cranks you better make sure it turns, stops and protects you.
My build project is rally oriented but my first intention is to do lemons.
Good luck with the project!
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dalspaugh
David Alspaugh
Senior Moderator
Location: Boston, MA
Join Date: 04/30/2015
Age: Party Animal
Posts: 66

Rally Car:
'91 Audi Coupe Quattro


Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
November 04, 2015 12:01PM
Nice! Always fun to see another CQ being built...

There is another CQ that runs lemons in the NorthEast, they run a "Scooby-doo" livery and are quite competitive!



Blog about my history with the rally car written for non-automotive folk: davescq.wordpress.com
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Vfercho73
Fernando vitor
Infallible Moderator
Location: Rome Ga USA
Join Date: 11/03/2015
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 14

Rally Car:
1990 audi cq- 2014 Suzuki gran vitara


Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
November 05, 2015 06:04AM
Did you find the audi exhaust manifold for your 7A?
The one that looks like headers?
I got one, and some spare parts from the same engine.
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dalspaugh
David Alspaugh
Senior Moderator
Location: Boston, MA
Join Date: 04/30/2015
Age: Party Animal
Posts: 66

Rally Car:
'91 Audi Coupe Quattro


Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
November 05, 2015 07:41AM
Quote
Vfercho73
Did you find the audi exhaust manifold for your 7A?
The one that looks like headers?
I got one, and some spare parts from the same engine.

From an early build 7a, yes. I cannot believe that Audi actually made that as an OEM part - blows me away.

I've collected quite a few parts... just need to start putting them on the car...

Actually, last night was a big milestone. For the first time I put something on the car that should stay there! drum roll pleeaseee.... it was the Clutch master.

I hope everyone can control their excitement! I've also got a plan for the fuel lines that will dump them out in the back seat with essentially 0 length under the car. Just need to get the parts here.

Still... working on some of the wiring... I'll just leave it at that, about 90% of the way there.



Blog about my history with the rally car written for non-automotive folk: davescq.wordpress.com
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dalspaugh
David Alspaugh
Senior Moderator
Location: Boston, MA
Join Date: 04/30/2015
Age: Party Animal
Posts: 66

Rally Car:
'91 Audi Coupe Quattro


Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
November 05, 2015 07:52AM
Oh, I also extracted my first broken exhaust stud (in the head). Here's the process in case anyone's interested:

**All these steps were performed after much treatment with MAP Torch and PB Blaster!**

eyeball center and punch it with a center punch.


I have left-hand thread bits just for this purpose, so dril it out, pay careful attn to depth so as not go into the head...


Tap in extractor to seat...


then, CAREFULLY crank CCW, I say carefully because the extractors can only take so much and you REALLY don't want to break the extractor off in the stud. If it feels like its not going to move, reapply lots of heat and penetrating fluid. You can also step up to a bigger drill bit and bigger extractor... but in the end.. whoala!


Also, I should note, that this job mamde me buy this fancy extractor set... but having 3 early 90s Audis in NE, I'm sure will allow me to get my money back... (also I got it on Amazon Warehouse deals for a discount)

http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EEX644?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00



Blog about my history with the rally car written for non-automotive folk: davescq.wordpress.com
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wildert
Brian Klausen
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Location: Denmark
Join Date: 03/21/2006
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 388

Rally Car:
VW Golf GTi 16V


Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
November 11, 2015 03:12AM
Quote
dalspaugh
I see the need, and I have the want to get in there in stitch weld and make this chassis extremely robust - but for now it'll have to wait. There's just not enough time to get it all done. Winter is coming here in NE and that'll mean an even slower pace than I'm already working at - who the hell wants to be in an unheated/uninsulated garage at 10-30 degrees? Now I understand people are working with less, and hats off to them...

Anyway, the car requires a ton more work and if I have any hope of making it to an event in '16 - even a rallyX, I better keep the pace up and the scope limited.

Not to beat a dead horse, but maybe consider re-scoping then...
Stich welding is so very basic, and takes a lot of taking-car-apart to get to, not to mention messing up paint job in the area.
Doing the actual welding is not THAT bad time-wise - getting to where you are able to do the welding, and cleaning up afterwards takes time.

So if you are "in there" for other business, I would consider doing it anyway, even if it means not doing some other things right now.

I haven't read through the thread in detail, but I bet there are a few items that I would give lower priority than stitch welding.

I know I am happy I did it on my car...
I have multi point cage extending to the front towers (our regs are not as insane as the US ones), tie ins here and there, etc.
We do some jumping - and it is on rather stiff tarmac suspension (since we rally mostly on tarmac smiling smiley).
Also I haven't spent a lot of money on fancy suspension - more like "get the stuff that works and lasts".
Still - after doing a +100 mph jump at the last event, I checked the seams in the front wheel tubs, and it still does shift a bit as can be seen in the paint. Just half a millimeter - but it is there - and this car is stitch welded.

So far the shell has lasted more than 10 years - I wonder how long it would have lasted without stitching it.



Brgrds
Brian

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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Ultra Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,994

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
November 11, 2015 01:00PM
Quote
wildert
I bet there are a few items that I would give lower priority than stitch welding.

I know I am happy I did it on my car...
I have multi point cage extending to the front towers (our regs are not as insane as the US ones), tie ins here and there, etc.
We do some jumping - and it is on rather stiff tarmac suspension (since we rally mostly on tarmac smiling smiley).
Also I haven't spent a lot of money on fancy suspension - more like "get the stuff that works and lasts".
Still - after doing a +100 mph jump at the last event, I checked the seams in the front wheel tubs, and it still does shift a bit as can be seen in the paint. Just half a millimeter - but it is there - and this car is stitch welded.

So far the shell has lasted more than 10 years - I wonder how long it would have lasted without stitching it.

Wildisen, I put 10 hard years and 10s of thousands of miles practice on my first car, the old 69 Saab...I knew it was stronger by serious degree than modern flimsy things like anything from the 80s but I thought you just do it.. A Golf pervert I knew in Sweden, Jonas Danielsson from Märsta said he's asked some old guy if he should weld when he started building his Golf--when he had sold his 96 (that is how I met him---I was buying some of his old stuff (steel flywheel and motorsport pressure plate and some other junk) He said the old guy said "You can take some time now, maybe 20-25 hours, and stitch it and the shell will last maybe 2 years of hard use and give no problems....OR you can skip it and go straight to rallies and when parts bend and rip, THEN you can hammer them straight, weld in a patch and in 2 years you will have spent maybe 25 hours welding. The difference is the amount of repairs to things, the amount of parts fallen off and damaged and the DNFs you have because of parts ripping and falling off, and the entry fees and transport to those events...Your choice"

But Like you Danes, the Swedes are Lutherans in culture..This means it is an accepted premise that if you shall have some fun you must pay, you must suffer. That is the nature of the world.

WE are Merikuns...The culture was once a "Protestant" culture..Hard work, and deferral of gratification was the cornerstone of what made Merikuh grape.
But that faded and was replaced by the current "Consumer-Capitalist" economy. The one unbending rule is the instant gratification of any and every whim...Its what won WWI (on this very day 97 years ago) and was the source of America singlehandedly winning WWII, and why we beat the evil Soviet Union, and defeated worldwide Comma-nist Conspiracy to impose its satanic ideology on us.

Suggesting doing something NOW for the benefit of having something that might last 10 years is nothing short of un-American if it means delaying entering an event..

I appreciate you suggesting what you did. I always appreciate your input..I have advocated thorough going stitch welding in the past--and done I don't know but maybe 10 cars...
Since we are privateers it seemed to make sense...

But then I saw the error of my ways..and began suggesting more or less just what you are saying sorta. "Weld when you're there"..so inside the car at cage time? Weld what's easy... Later after entering event with shitty old worn out motor and you blow it up so the engine and box are out? Weld when you're there. Did the subframe in the rear rip and the links and arms go boing cause they were not looked at? Weld when you're there..

But even that is excessive I now understand..experienced guys who have done 3 whole events in the last 10 years say the worst thing they ever did was to listen to me...so since we're saying the same thing in essence, we must both be wrong..
If I come and visit Danmark sometime, please remind me to slap you on the side of the head..I think we call that a "bitch slap" but I'm not so good with current merikun thought. Obviously..
Then you can return the favor.


Happy Armistice Day...the 11th Hour of the eleventh day or the eleventh month...97 years ago..
And the guns went silent.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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