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Audi CQ Rally Build

Posted by dalspaugh 
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
August 19, 2015 09:24AM
Quote
aj_johnson
BBSE's are a way to use the URS4 strut bodies in the B3 housings. I think you can get 5.5 in of strut travel or so out of em, and they use the larger Bilstien HD body.
http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=37729

CQ REAR
HD’s P36-3017
Compressed: 440.0 / 17.32
Extended: 538.5 / 21.20
Travel: 98.5 / 3.88”
Valving: 197/47 Comp/Rebound

Sports P36-3058
Compressed: x / 17.32
Extended: x / 20.41
Travel: x / 3.09”
Valving: 196/47

UR-Q Fronts - P36-3016
Compressed: 435.0 / 17.13”
Extended: 548.5 / 21.59”
Travel: 113.5 / 4.47”
Valving: 174/43 Comp/Rebound

S4 Front Shocks
P36-0370 “HD”
Compressed: 17.28”
Extended: 22.1”
Travel: 122.42mm / 4.82”
Valving: 113/101 Comp/Rebound

P36-0369 “Sport (front)”
Compressed 17.25”
Extended: 21.25”
Travel: 3.92”
Valving: 113/101 Comp/Rebound

And all that would be a complete waste of time and worse money.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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dalspaugh
David Alspaugh
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'91 Audi Coupe Quattro


Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
August 19, 2015 10:26AM
Quote
john vanlandingham

And all that would be a complete waste of time and worse money.

I see we have conflicting opinions here... I can't say I have opinions either way, I'm pretty new when it comes to this uber travel suspension stuff.



Blog about my history with the rally car written for non-automotive folk: davescq.wordpress.com
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dalspaugh
David Alspaugh
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Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
August 19, 2015 10:43AM
Quote
aj_johnson
Cut the battery tray out, and weld up a bunch of those firewall holes. (or make sure you have the right plugs for em now) some of them are bitch to get to once the motor/or dash are in the way. Also stick in bulkhead fittings for fuel and brakes while it's easy. Also, white is just the easiest way to go about the engine bay, use a common color. one of the GM whites for instance. Makes it easy to rattle can any future repairs.

Yes battery tray is going along with some other now useless mounts in the engine bay. and yes, need to weld up lots of holes.

Thanks for the tip on the bulkhead fittings, I didn't know something like that existed. That'll be perfect for the firewall interface.



Blog about my history with the rally car written for non-automotive folk: davescq.wordpress.com
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NoCoast
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Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
August 19, 2015 12:38PM
Quote
dalspaugh
Quote
john vanlandingham

And all that would be a complete waste of time and worse money.

I see we have conflicting opinions here... I can't say I have opinions either way, I'm pretty new when it comes to this uber travel suspension stuff.

They arent a waste of time or money. They are AWESOME from the retailers perspective as they get to sell you new shocks every event! At least that was my experience with them on a very lightweight fwd car and one other friends. By time he finally switched to DMS he was actually replacing the HD inserts overnight at rallies.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
August 19, 2015 12:55PM
Quote
dalspaugh
Quote
john vanlandingham

And all that would be a complete waste of time and worse money.

I see we have conflicting opinions here... I can't say I have opinions either way, I'm pretty new when it comes to this uber travel suspension stuff.

Well the anove stuff is short travel and it is valved so softly that it will only work with springs like stock...very soft And that is a huge conflict..
"Uber" long travel is that the modern WRC cars have--12-14"

Most STOCK German things have between 145-160mm or 5.7 to 6.3"

"Normal" gravel stuff should be between 190-210mm or 7.5" to 8.25"

There is a relationship between available travel and 'ideal' spring rate for given usage...
Short stuff does not give you the luxury of softer springs--which are nice for absorbing BUMPS.
Short travel demands firmer spring or you just end up bottoming constantly
Stiff springs demands stiff damping to control the springs..

An example is easy to find from precedent--as I call it "praxis" . I've bought plenty of ex Group A Ford Sierra and Escort Cosworth Bilstein TARMAC inserts before the US importer geared up to supply the quantities I was needing..
The Fords weighed in at 1230kg fit for fight..the inserts had typically 155-160mm travel
Valving was typically between 360/160 to 400/200.. Spring was in the range of 375-450 lb/in

All the above have less travel but much much softer valving...

Even at the normal travel of 190-210 I would expect in a 1230 kg car with struts to have valving between say 320/110 to 300/100 front and rear respectively...
Springs depending on driver's potential speed and region (is it FAST roads like virtually everything in America or FUCKING FAST like some parts so between 250-300 in/lbs..

These figures are weight/usage based not brand specific.. Brand specific things are the bolt up "what's the c-c for the holes and gap of the ears? What Bolt circle for the top mounts..

Its more important to have extensive GRAVEL suspension experience that brand specific "enthusiasm'...and if ALL the above doesn't make simple and clear sense to whoever the guys in where ever they are who are 'advising you' then they should understand their limitations and desist in encouraging you to waste your money..

By the way the stuff above P36 means "patrone' with 36mm working piston and that means it is inverted 40mm inserts.

.These days I will only do 40mm inverted on road cars or cars under 2400lbs wet..

The question is can you afford to spend the money twice?
Because, sorry..seriously I am sorry, but the above stuff is totally useless and unsuitable even for a fun tarmac car.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
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is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2015 12:57PM by john vanlandingham.
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aj_johnson
A.J. Johnson
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Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
August 19, 2015 01:16PM
Quote
dalspaugh
Quote
john vanlandingham

And all that would be a complete waste of time and worse money.

I see we have conflicting opinions here... I can't say I have opinions either way, I'm pretty new when it comes to this uber travel suspension stuff.

I don't have a conflicting opinion, I'm just sharing some of the research I went through that ultimately led to the purchase of the green boingers John posted earlier. Those bbse struts still need to be revalved to something useful (70$ea) plus the cost of the struts themselves and the fab time to "fix" your b3 housings.... If you are gonna run stock stuff to get you by, then leave it stock and save your pennies.

On the bulkhead fittings, I'd use JIC stuffs. Much cheaper than AN fittings (same damn thing actually but made from steel rather than aluminum) and fuel lines can be had pretty cheap from here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NASCAR-10-stainless-steel-fuel-line-hose-AN-6-609-/231655580762?hash=item35efbfa45a&vxp=mtr



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2015 01:17PM by aj_johnson.
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Saab 96 V4



Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
August 19, 2015 01:48PM
Quote
aj_johnson
Quote
dalspaugh
Quote
john vanlandingham

And all that would be a complete waste of time and worse money.

I see we have conflicting opinions here... I can't say I have opinions either way, I'm pretty new when it comes to this uber travel suspension stuff.

I don't have a conflicting opinion, I'm just sharing some of the research I went through that ultimately led to the purchase of the green boingers John posted earlier. Those bbse struts still need to be revalved to something useful (70$ea) plus the cost of the struts themselves and the fab time to "fix" your b3 housings.... If you are gonna run stock stuff to get you by, then leave it stock and save your pennies.

On the bulkhead fittings, I'd use JIC stuffs. Much cheaper than AN fittings (same damn thing actually but made from steel rather than aluminum) and fuel lines can be had pretty cheap from here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NASCAR-10-stainless-steel-fuel-line-hose-AN-6-609-/231655580762?hash=item35efbfa45a&vxp=mtr

re-valve is currently $110



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
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deaner
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Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
August 19, 2015 02:44PM
Well that stinks. We're stuck with either stock shit or JVLs stuff....

I'll be the first to admit that the setup I mentioned isn't the most ideal suspension in anyway. For what I plan to do with my car(hill climb, grassocross,drift events) it will work just fine(and better than stock) until I can dedicate $2500 to gravel suspension for the one or two rallies I'll run a year. For the time being, I COULD build two complete suspension setups for the cost of Johns stuff. Thats not knocking on you John either, it's me knowing I'm new, slow and will break shit learning the things I need to learn as a driver, to actually utilize a suspension setup like yours.

As stupid as it sounds too, I enjoy learning new stuff when I build my own things. I love "test n tune/drinking beers and playing in the woods" days with a few of the guys I race off-road(mx) with because they are FULL of knowledge and help me dial in certain things by teaching, instead of just setting the bike up for me. Even if this whole BBSE shit sucks ball sack, I can guarantee I will have learned things about suspension that I never would have by just buying off the shelf or readily available parts.
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dalspaugh
David Alspaugh
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Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
August 19, 2015 03:09PM
Quote
deaner
Well that stinks. We're stuck with either stock shit or JVLs stuff....

I'll be the first to admit that the setup I mentioned isn't the most ideal suspension in anyway. For what I plan to do with my car(hill climb, grassocross,drift events) it will work just fine(and better than stock) until I can dedicate $2500 to gravel suspension for the one or two rallies I'll run a year. For the time being, I COULD build two complete suspension setups for the cost of Johns stuff. Thats not knocking on you John either, it's me knowing I'm new, slow and will break shit learning the things I need to learn as a driver, to actually utilize a suspension setup like yours.

As stupid as it sounds too, I enjoy learning new stuff when I build my own things. I love "test n tune/drinking beers and playing in the woods" days with a few of the guys I race off-road(mx) with because they are FULL of knowledge and help me dial in certain things by teaching, instead of just setting the bike up for me. Even if this whole BBSE shit sucks ball sack, I can guarantee I will have learned things about suspension that I never would have by just buying off the shelf or readily available parts.

This car won't be headed to a stage rally on Day 1 of it running/driving so I'm not too concerned with the suspension at all right now. So long as it holds the car up and does as OEM intended I'm happy for now.

I might be the only one on here building a car and not worrying about the suspension (we can call that being naive). In any case, thanks everyone for the input. I'm going to focus on trying to get the car to a point I'm even allowed to be thinking about spring rates, dampening and strut body sizes... smileys with beer



Blog about my history with the rally car written for non-automotive folk: davescq.wordpress.com
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Saab 96 V4



Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
August 19, 2015 03:28PM
Quote
deaner
Well that stinks. We're stuck with either stock shit or JVLs stuff....

I'll be the first to admit that the setup I mentioned isn't the most ideal suspension in anyway. For what I plan to do with my car(hill climb, grassocross,drift events) it will work just fine(and better than stock) until I can dedicate $2500 to gravel suspension for the one or two rallies I'll run a year. For the time being, I COULD build two complete suspension setups for the cost of Johns stuff. Thats not knocking on you John either, it's me knowing I'm new, slow and will break shit learning the things I need to learn as a driver, to actually utilize a suspension setup like yours.

As stupid as it sounds too, I enjoy learning new stuff when I build my own things. I love "test n tune/drinking beers and playing in the woods" days with a few of the guys I race off-road(mx) with because they are FULL of knowledge and help me dial in certain things by teaching, instead of just setting the bike up for me. Even if this whole BBSE shit sucks ball sack, I can guarantee I will have learned things about suspension that I never would have by just buying off the shelf or readily available parts.

you can also learn by reading and by dialog..l

All anybody will learn with short travel shit that is valved softer than stock is how in-appropriate the stuff is...And learning that is nothing of value.

You can learn that from the actual examples listed above...
That is more than what spending a bunch of money for junk will teach you.

You do not have to like whoever is doing the teach for whatever reasons you think you don't like them but it does not make any difference to what is appropriate for what..

Review, you were given actual weights and valving and lengths and spring rates for both tarmac and gravel for a 1230 kg car.. learn do do % and scale up...

There ARE alternates that a person can do if time and money mean nothing, but there aren't things that I can do in onsey twosie manner realistically and there's not a lot of sensible reasons to devote too much of my own time to a solution that somebody else can use once......

IF one wants to explore alternate solutions then you guys are going to have to say so, but I'm not willing to waste time arguing, especially in light of the obvious fact that whoever has concluded the above junk is worth selling thinks they know something and its horribly clear they don't...



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
August 19, 2015 03:37PM
Quote
dalspaugh

This car won't be headed to a stage rally on Day 1 of it running/driving so I'm not too concerned with the suspension at all right now. So long as it holds the car up and does as OEM intended I'm happy for now.

But the above junk won't even do that..


OEM inserts and springs are OFTEN very very good quality and matched very good--matched as in springs and dampers.. very often..Sachs is not dumb...not in the least..

The above junk is too short by OEM standards and valved so soft I doubt it will work with stock Quattro spring unless they are no stiffer than around 95-100 lb/in.

OEM springs and shocks would be a safer bet---the problem now days is getting actual OEM...

Again---THIS is my business, and I've done very high end suspension for 40 years.....very often the parts you get if you buy a Sachs shock/strut in the aftermarket are NOT the same as OEM stuff...Different part bnumbers in the case of saabs where I have more direct experience..
And that was the case with the Bilsteins delivered as OEM on the Saabs which had those..OEM
Rally
Aftermarket were all three different PNs and different valving---subtly but different..

So go OEM or discuss alternates that might work.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
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NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
August 19, 2015 03:47PM
Quote
deaner
Well that stinks. We're stuck with either stock shit or JVLs stuff....

I'll be the first to admit that the setup I mentioned isn't the most ideal suspension in anyway. For what I plan to do with my car(hill climb, grassocross,drift events) it will work just fine

No, there are other options out there, they just will cost even more than John's great budget friendly intro rally suspension. Reiger, MCA, DMS, Ohlins and others will entertain building something for your car. Ohlins even sells an insert/tube combo, fab and weld on your own ears and figure out a top mount setup so you can do what John does in the comfort of your own garage (ITCOYOG), it just costs like $4k+...

You want to rally, buy rally suspension. If it's too expensive, go race something else. Sounds harsh, but it's the truth. You can't afford it but you really want to go do a rally then buy some stock replacement stuff and go enter a fucking event. Don't waste your time or money trying to build something that isn't going to last any longer than a $100 KYB GR2 or Bilstein touring strut or similar. If it's not JVAB or better it is a consumable, stick to cheap and easy shit and don't plan on doing it for years.
You are trying to race an old Audi. Thus, you are not going to win ever, you are already going to be fighting reliability issues, over heating and a plethora of other issues. This is and should be an exercise purely for fun and enjoyment on your end, make your life easier and focus on getting it to run cool, figure out any electical gremlins, and go drive.
Summary:
Stock replacement is fine for track days, hill climbs, and rallycross.
Stock replacement is BETTER than non-stock OEM level replacement as life is about the same (One rally or less once you drive it like a rally driver).
If you want to rally, buy rally equipment.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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deaner
Dane Aura
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Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
August 19, 2015 04:11PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Quote
deaner
Well that stinks. We're stuck with either stock shit or JVLs stuff....

I'll be the first to admit that the setup I mentioned isn't the most ideal suspension in anyway. For what I plan to do with my car(hill climb, grassocross,drift events) it will work just fine(and better than stock) until I can dedicate $2500 to gravel suspension for the one or two rallies I'll run a year. For the time being, I COULD build two complete suspension setups for the cost of Johns stuff. Thats not knocking on you John either, it's me knowing I'm new, slow and will break shit learning the things I need to learn as a driver, to actually utilize a suspension setup like yours.

As stupid as it sounds too, I enjoy learning new stuff when I build my own things. I love "test n tune/drinking beers and playing in the woods" days with a few of the guys I race off-road(mx) with because they are FULL of knowledge and help me dial in certain things by teaching, instead of just setting the bike up for me. Even if this whole BBSE shit sucks ball sack, I can guarantee I will have learned things about suspension that I never would have by just buying off the shelf or readily available parts.

you can also learn by reading and by dialog..l

All anybody will learn with short travel shit that is valved softer than stock is how in-appropriate the stuff is...And learning that is nothing of value.

You can learn that from the actual examples listed above...
That is more than what spending a bunch of money for junk will teach you.

You do not have to like whoever is doing the teach for whatever reasons you think you don't like them but it does not make any difference to what is appropriate for what..

Review, you were given actual weights and valving and lengths and spring rates for both tarmac and gravel for a 1230 kg car.. learn do do % and scale up...

There ARE alternates that a person can do if time and money mean nothing, but there aren't things that I can do in onsey twosie manner realistically and there's not a lot of sensible reasons to devote too much of my own time to a solution that somebody else can use once......

IF one wants to explore alternate solutions then you guys are going to have to say so, but I'm not willing to waste time arguing, especially in light of the obvious fact that whoever has concluded the above junk is worth selling thinks they know something and its horribly clear they don't...

To be clear, no body is making these things FOR the rally crowd. This setup was figured up years and years ago as a way to use better dampers than what was available vs spending $1800 on KW shit when they still actually sold to the old Audi crowd in the U.S. market. It's not even close to an end all be all man haha. I hope it wasn't implied that I'm trying to sell anything? That's def not the case on my end. I simply asked the OP because there might be an option that isn't stock crap or your expensive(relative) baller stuff. Like pointed out, there isn't jack shit for old audis for good suspension, so we make our own or pay people like you $2500 for nice stuff. That's where we are in the Audi market. So if a guy that's going to play with his car outside of stage rally more often than being on stage doing other events, how is the "middle road" a horrible horrible thing? Plenty of people run stock suspension and do just fine, what's wrong with a bit better than stock on gravel but bounds better for other events?

I'm not trying to argue either and I don't have anything against you lol. I still plan on buying your stuff eventually, but for me, right now, it's not worth it if I'm only running one gravel event a year.
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Saab 96 V4



Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
August 19, 2015 05:41PM
Been busy reading all abut how America's financial system "works" so not paying too careful attention but I thought I'sd say:
There are always alternatives..

A sinmple one would to be to order some bronze and make some press fit bushings:
http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=10490&step=4&showunits=inches&id=300&top_cat=850

1.5" long x say 10 so 15-16"
or since 2 of you guys need it 36"
12 inch length - $45.92
24 inch length - $88.20
36 inch length - $124.08

make it about 002-0025" bigger than the carefully measured ID of the OEM tubes and give the leading edge a good 45* chamfer so when you press them in it goes in good and the sharp edge doesn't just shave the bronze off.
ID should be maybe taken out to 020 less than 40mm/ 1.574" so 1.554"

You'll need toi find some scrap aluminum to make a good fitting pressing tool.

Press in so the bottom of the lower bush is in about 4 or so inches from the top of the tube.

Then, get some steel and make a bottom roughly (+- say 010) the size of the ID of the bottom of the strut tube..Make it about 7,92mm thick just to grab a size outta the air. While in the chuck drill and tap to M10 x 1..
Need 4 per car
Get the bottom out of the OEM tube somehow.. (chuck it up and bore is the easiest)

next hone the ID of the bushes to about 001-002 clearance with a decent dingle ball hone, checking often for nice fit

Now with the inserts you bought and machined the tops, insert the insert into the tube so its in about 4"--and that the part sticking out is at least what the travel is..
Now look up the bottom of the tube.
That's where your new bottom must be welded in..Tape measure to the bottom of the rod then add thel ength of the threaded part of the rod--about 3/4".

Done with the insert and strut body, now the major question is finding a durable strut top mount..The OEM stuff being garbage.

There are always alternatives.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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Robert Culbertson
Robert Culbertson
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Re: Audi CQ Rally Build
August 19, 2015 06:13PM
John, ya gotta start using some better bronze mang! Step up to an aluminum or manganese bronze, that's what all the fancy motorcycle bushings are.
It sucks to machine, but it lasts SO MUCH LONGER when it's not made from cheese...
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