Suspension Setup Mk4 Golf

First off, I've been directed to this site often while searching the internets for information. From the posts I've read, it appears that there are many knowledgeable people on this site.

Secondly, I do not have a rally car nor do I plan on buying one in the immediate future. I do however have a 2000 VW Golf that I have started RallyCross racing this past year with the SCCA. I have really enjoyed my first .5 year. My goal right now is to just keep things simple and make slow upgrades to the car.

Here is my question: what would be a good/ideal suspension setup for this car keeping the theme of a street-legal rallycross car? Stiff shocks/Soft springs?

-I know many people run Bilstein HD's for absorbers. For about 700, would that be a preferred setup over something like the jvabs that John V builds, since the suspension travel on a rallycross car is much less? I want to buy something that will last. Down the road I could see the possibility of getting a different car, so being able to modify/transfer the absorbers over would be ideal, although not sure if I could swing that with either.

-As for the springs, the stock springs are 149 in/lbs I think. For rallycross would it be better to have a softer spring or a stiffer spring?

-For a low hp/torque engine (2.0L) would it be best to keep the front sway bars and add a rear or should I just disconnect/remove the front?

-Tires...any recommendations? I thought the Cooper weathermasters look nice for an all around tire, but would be interested in an affordable rally tire.

Right now I understand that the best upgrade would be the driver, but I'm trying to come up with a plan for the upgrades. Any help would be appreciated.

Rally-X suspension depends on the nature of where you run.

The course I frequent is sand and ruts up bad. Travel is needed here so taller springs but soft with good travel on struts.

Hard packed courses can use less travel but stiffer springs.

There is no "one size fits all".

Quote
NGTD
Rally-X suspension depends on the nature of where you run.

The course I frequent is sand and ruts up bad. Travel is needed here so taller springs but soft with good travel on struts.

Hard packed courses can use less travel but stiffer springs.

There is no "one size fits all".

Yep, exactly.. the other thing is the speeds typical ...Wawwy-closs aka grass-o-cross is 'spossed to be low average speed. And while it's good cheap mindless fun, it really bears no resemblance at all in any way to the critical things you have to learn to do real gravel rally....

If we squint and pretend there's something to be learned its real easy to say the only lessons are:
First do no stupid

and

without weight on the outside front wheel you are not going to turn, so you have to PLACE the weight where you want it...

The key thing in moving weight for cornering is the front brakes....

The problem is at the low speeds the events are 'spossed to be run there's not a whole lotta difference relatively between corning speeds and straightaway speeds.
So very little time and distance to really BRAKE HARD and shift LOTS of weight forward..

Stiffer springs makes it harder..
In real Stage rally if you're not asleep you can hit 70-90 on the straights and you have a chance to brake like a sunny-beach to bring the car down to a safe cornering speed..

If you look at Dubya Arsey on You-floob some years back they sometimes had displayed the speed during the in-car stuff...And if you watch even Loeb or Gronholm when they do a T junction on gravel or an acute turn the speed drops to around 40km/hr--about 24 mph ---for a second....
Given their average speed of around 70-74mph they hafta brake hard, at the last second to get down to 24...They transfer a lotta weight forward when they do it---and you can see the cars nose down...

In wawwy-closs maybe you touch 35, maybe even 40, and then the turns are only a bit slower----and they TEND to be swooopy meandering corners---so no hard breking to shift weight..
So softer allows easier weight transfer and easier compliance--wheel stay in touch with the ground.

But short travel means all the travel gets "used up" with even moderate braking leaving little or nuthin for the bumps and ruts...

So get fresh stock stuff and let it clang and live with it, or get soething good; longer travel and relaible...

Its never fun to buy stuff twice but a guy CAN buy nice stuff, specify milder damping and spring rates and then later if the car becomes a stage car, revalve to real gravel numbers and bump the springs up a hair...

a NOTE: unless you can either test a spring on a tester OR read it from an Official source--workshop manual or competition manual don't belive anybody on what stock stuff is...
EVERYBODY just repeats what somebody else said on some dumb forum and track it to source and its somebody saying "It should be XXX"

Xratties front spring is, for a 2780-2850lb turbo '(supposed) fast road car, 96-97 pound inch...
The same car with the bitchin Cosworth motor and same gearing in the axle--and it will do stock 150mph, is about 109 pound/in---straight from Ford Motorsport...
Travel is about what a Golf II, III, or IV is about 150-155mm (Xratty is 160)...
The point is numbers count, but they must be real numbers...

Whatever the springs are, stock and stock replacement stuff, like off the shelf road car Bilstein are going to be valved for that OEM spring...
So why pay more?

You gonna get some thing get something good, or live with cheap stockish stuff till you can afford something good FOR WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

Aagin, it does not matter what everybody says, I run into that constantly in many areas..I build very good motors, and brakes and other stuff more than suspesnion, and when trying to prevent guys from wasting money some guys will say "I LIKE my __________(whatever junk crap they found in the yards)"

I often say "But there's nothing saying you won't like something BETTER more".

But "in the kingdom of Blind men, a one eyed man is King"..

And I share the grief that there just isn't anything worth a damn between stockish OEM stuff and my stuff...I drive a couple of cars that are wallowy boats, but a) I ain't spending the money for my stuff on a street car, and I it irks me that everything else is wallowy soft.

A real dilemma.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2015 12:27PM by john vanlandingham.

Suspension, keep stock but get some fresh struts. Stock springs. No need to remove the sway bar just for events. If you feel like disconnecting and reconnecting each time, knock yourself out. I doubt you will find that much of a difference though (assuming your venue is not too rough).

Tires, used rally tires or new/used cheapo winters (read, knobby snow tires not super siped ice tires). I personally like the Walmart Weathermate HW501's. Get the outside edges of the treads grooved (ie squared off) for better sideways bite.

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Runamuck Rally

Hello someone can tell me if there are universal bilstein and if they give good result. Excuse my English . Thank You

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Angel

Quote
Angel
Hello someone can tell me if there are universal bilstein and if they give good result. Excuse my English . Thank You

Hola Angel,
I make the Bilstein struts for a very big number of cars here in USA and with my set, it works very good..and it is also strong which for us being private drivers, is very important...


I won't even try to write in Spanish (which is extra crazy because it was my first language...my mother --who is now 89 and very ill---was raised in Panama and her aunties and sisters came up here so when I was little that's what was in the house in in my ears...but thats more than 50 years ago! ) but on this forum we made one big rule: everybody should have their full name--their real name---and their location someplace in the side part or in the 'signature"...so we know we are talking with a real human..
Many have decided that that is too much of burden , but please, add your name, tell us where you are from and what kind of car and rally you do...

d'accord? (see I try but it comes out in French pobre mio!)

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

My name is Angel javier and I am from Argentina , eh I tried to get a q suspencion Bilstein fits my need but still can not find the way , in Germany is very complicated why I joined this forum . I have a team rally , Bilstein suspension to adapt to any person with valves 380/180 mc is what I believe would be needed. Baratec is being used here but they are a very expensive option .

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Angel

Quote
Angel
My name is Angel javier and I am from Argentina , eh I tried to get a q suspencion Bilstein fits my need but still can not find the way , in Germany is very complicated why I joined this forum . I have a team rally , Bilstein suspension to adapt to any person with valves 380/180 mc is what I believe would be needed. Baratec is being used here but they are a very expensive option .

Well, welcome Angel, where in Argentina?
I got a message from some crazy guys way down in Tierra del Fuego, so I went and found a website for the motor-club down there and I was amazed!
Those crazy guys are in the end of the world and they have as many entries as we get here with so many more population...And the names!!! Everybody is like me! A big mix....In Catalan there's a word for crazy people all mixed up background, they say "metisse"..I saw lots of Russian or Czech family names and Germans, and of course Italians and even some all Spanish names....I guess it takes some real special people to go to the end of the world..

OK I can make you very good suspension for Golf, and I've done many many Golf II and Golf III and one Golf Mk4...
But first there is always questions, always...

First.... tierra o asfalto?

Secondo : what class? Do you have a link to your rules? (naturalmente, puedo leer español , es sólo hablar que ha desaparecido ( forzado a salir por el francés ) ( He vivido en Francia 2 años para hacer motocrós ) I ask because I want to know what rules you have about any modifications en la carroseria

Which motor? Modified for more power?

See what spring depends on what weight and how fast a car is, then we choose the valving to control that spring...so we should know, if it is asfato con 1300 GrupoN or maybe a 2,0 16v and you are Senior and trying very hard..

On Mk4 there are two areas which if the rules allow it it would be vary smart to modify for better reliability and that's the top mounting in back for the amortiguados it looks like this:


I think the Germans collect old beer cans and heat them up to make those...It would probably be smart if the rules allowed to simplify that set up and make room for the resort? (French)

Can you weld? (soldar?)

The other area is the front top mount, again a constant problem, easy solution, but must know the rules...

volver, nos dicen más y si tiene problemas con determinadas palabras , no se preocupe , escribir la palabra en español , ¿de acuerdo?

And yes the Baratek is beautiful but much too expensive and in America horrible service.
What is the cost in Argentina?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Hello john do not know if you get my mens . Rally run on dirt , gravel. No asphalt . Q suspension to have this type of terrain ? The price of the two front struts baratec hover in 2800. Included USS springs. The hardness of springs that would be using is 250 or 270 pounds.

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Angel

Quote
Angel
Hello john do not know if you get my mens . Rally run on dirt , gravel. No asphalt . Q suspension to have this type of terrain ? The price of the two front struts baratec hover in 2800. Included USS springs. The hardness of springs that would be using is 250 or 270 pounds.

OK Angle, gravel (do you say 'sur tierra' or hat is gravel in Spanish? In French you say "sur terre"

250 pounds sound good...I was doing 275 for the faster guys here who really are a lot faster than average Golf in USA.. Some guys I go 225 if they are newer and timid..There is a good rule in suspension "never go stiffer than the minimum needed"...It should occasionally kiss the bottom.....not go CLANG! BANG! all the time but now and then should be a easy "bump!".. Much better for grip..

Now a complete Front and rear with Bilstein 50 in front and a good 50mm rear coilover is about $2400 so less than just the fronts of the beautiful Baratec....
That is ready to bolt into the car...but we should discuss what Top mounting in front...

I have fix for more than 20 guys the top to use Subaru top mount which is good enough for 1300kg car so work better on a light Golf at maybe 1050-1150kg It looks like this:


Very reliable and cost under $50 each

If you desire I can supply top for bearing like this but better


But that is additional...

Also you didn't say what engine and what power.....

And if you can weld on the car...We really want to have rear coilover and have place for the spring..Can you weld on the car in your rules?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2015 11:54AM by john vanlandingham.

Quote
john vanlandingham
....... light Golf at maybe 900-920kg It looks like this:

Bwah?

Even an MK2 golf wont drop below 2000lbs in rally trim with a minimal cage unless you apply copious amounts of carbon fiber and skimp on all kinds of protection underneath. In fact we couldn't break the 2000lb mark even after removal of the following items:
--headlights, brackets and wiring
--Passenger seat & brackets & harnesses
--All co-driver accessories including intercom, ODO, footrest, etc
--Entire dash
--spare tire
--all tools
--spill kit
--first aid kit
Completely gutted passenger's door with no window, regulator, or crashbar
--Entire exhaust other than about 18" and a turn-down after the header
--Most of the fuel
--And running 12lb wheels and tarmac tires that are way lighter than rally wheels and tires


A rolling mk4 chassis weighs at least 300lbs more than a rolling mk2 chassis

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____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

Hi John. The engine is 1,600 cc . With an output of approximately 160hp . The Bistein eh used for years with good results were 40 mm ( 380-180 ) expansion- compression , if I remember correctly . You can have the same or similar valves in the value bilstein 50mm ? . I have many pilots interested in what comes out of our contact. Just for now I want to know the cost of the front suspension and shipping is possible if Argentina or Uruguay

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Angel

Quote
Angel
Hi John. The engine is 1,600 cc . With an output of approximately 160hp . The Bistein eh used for years with good results were 40 mm ( 380-180 ) expansion- compression , if I remember correctly . You can have the same or similar valves in the value bilstein 50mm ? . I have many pilots interested in what comes out of our contact. Just for now I want to know the cost of the front suspension and shipping is possible if Argentina or Uruguay

OK shipping even to Canada which is just 160 km to the North I use US Mail..

Angel, trust me on this--380/180 is valving I would expect to see on for example Escort Cosworth (minimum weight 1230 kg and big nasty turbo motor)..and for use o very very smooth gravel or rough asphalt like maybe Ireland...

And Angel i like and use and reccomend Bilstein mainly because of their use of their standard number system like 300/100 as far back as I have been modifying suspension..

The numbers are a 1/10 notation of the force the valving generates if you stroke the unit at velocity of 0,52 m/s...So the example means it generates 3000 N on rebound or extention and 1000 N on compression... they drop one "0"...

And i must stress that there is a realstionship between weight of car and how quick the car is..
easy to think of:
think of a bump or a hole..To hit the bump at 70 km/hr just rolling by is one thing, to hit the same bump at 70 km/hr when accelerating hard is another, and to hit the same bump at 70km/hr while braking from 130 km is another thing.. weight and speed are related...

Now You may have seen people using 380/180 and they may say they like it....but we really don't know why they are using it..maybe they got it that was from somebody who used it for another---much heavier---car . Qien sabe?

Here is a link to a guy I have talked a bit with on this subject--remember he is only a driver, he doesn't make suspension for 40 years, but very interesting he sees the trend which rally cars have been doing moroe and more in last 20 years.---just 20 years after we were doing same in serious moto-cross.
http://wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.com/2012/02/springs-co.html

And please answer why only front? Front and rear should be in some balance..What do you have in the back--what damper, what valving?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John agrees with what you say about what could go better with those values. And maybe it would be advisable Eibach 275 pounds . Baratec : Total open 560mm ( 56cm ) and compressed bastago 360mm ( 36cm ) . So the working range of the suspension is about 200 mm (20 cm ) maybe a little more . Bilstein waited 50 is similar . My car weighs 950kg . If I can I will send photos.

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Angel

Sorry, I missed the rallycross part. Without a cage and underbody protection, skidplates, etc 2000lbs is achievable even with the mk4 chassis.

Angel, for what it is worth I began rallycrossing a mk2 VW golf in the late 1990s and progressed to stage rally. The suspension I used improved over the years and as travel increased, spring rates were softened as John suggests and we made big improvements in grip with each step. car has remained just over 1000kg at every step of the progression

Rallycross setup began with 36mm 300/100 valved Bilsteins with 145mm travel and 300# springs

Moved to JVAB 41mm Bilsteins (perhaps some of his first for a VW) with around 170mm travel and 300/100 valving and 300# springs Tested with 200#, 225# and 250# springs and found 250# worked well (softer springs meant too much clanging and bottoming out on hard hits). Began stage rally as well so speeds were higher but rallycross tended to have frequent heavy impacts from ruts.

Moved to RS&SP (aka Baratec) 55mm struts with just over 200mm travel and adjustable valving. Baratec recommended 275# springs and no helper -- so we tried it and they were less than great with the stiff springs and the stiction from the huge pistons. Ended up with 225# springs and a helper that is fully compressed at static ride height. Only clang the suspension under the very biggest impacts with this setup.

You can take this all with a grain of salt as we never did testing with softer than 225# springs

The rear we had a similar progression from a 200# spring with 180mm travel down to a 160# spring with 230mm travel. Again, we never tested anything softer because we started clanging on the largest hits when we had the ride height set where we liked (pretty low in the rear---seems to keep the car more stable on fast stuff).

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____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf