Construction Zone
Don\
Welcome! Log In Register

Advanced

2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To

Posted by Robert Culbertson 
Robert Culbertson
Out of this dumpster fire
Super Moderator
Join Date: 08/15/2010
Posts: 1,236



Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 07, 2015 11:09AM
Mark, the cheapest low-miles ecoboost that is local to me is $1300 with 12k miles.
The ECU is $1500 from Ford.
The mazda 5 speed is listed around $300-700, with 6spds at $1000. The one that I picked up was $700 with 26k miles on it. Talking with Dave, the 5spd might be a better choice since you don't shift the car very much with all the torque.
The upgraded mazda clutch set was $550 and the flywheel was another $200 or so. You may be able to get by with a stock clutch, but the one we chose was actually rated within the torque output of the engine. These parts all bolt together, no modifications.

The quad-4-rods bell housing adapter was about $550 when I checked. You still need a clutch system though.

Dave can add his opinions on what it's like on stage. I thought the turbo lag on the ecoboost is almost zero. There is no waiting. Between the variable cam timing, ignition timing changes, and the wastegate controller doing magic... It's always ready to go go go.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
NoCoast
Grant Hughes
Mod Moderator
Location: Denver, CO
Join Date: 01/11/2006
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 6,740

Rally Car:
Merkur



Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 07, 2015 11:15AM
Mark might just have a stand alone ECU and modified Volvo head and a few spare blocks to build a really cool engine for the Merkur.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
Please Login or Register to post a reply
MarkHille
Mark Hille
Mod Moderator
Location: The hills of CT
Join Date: 10/04/2011
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 134

Rally Car:
I have two crap boxes


Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 07, 2015 11:57AM
Quote
Robert Culbertson

Dave can add his opinions on what it's like on stage. I thought the turbo lag on the ecoboost is almost zero. There is no waiting. Between the variable cam timing, ignition timing changes, and the wastegate controller doing magic... It's always ready to go go go.

You say this and I really WANT to believe you....but I'd have to feel it to believe it. haha.

Grant, that is already my problem. I have spare blocks and in my head the only thing wrong with them is they sometimes strip the distributor gears especially if you try and put in a high pressure pump. $400 and esslinger will solve that problem too though. Forged pistons, stout rods, stout crank. Yeah the block weighs a little more but with an aluminum head how much difference is there when you have a steel oil pan on the ecoboost? If you didn't have ANY spare parts the ecoboost starts to look better and better. If your swimming in them.....well.....
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Robert Culbertson
Out of this dumpster fire
Super Moderator
Join Date: 08/15/2010
Posts: 1,236



Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 07, 2015 01:06PM
Quote
MarkHille

You say this and I really WANT to believe you....but I'd have to feel it to believe it. haha.

Come on out to the PNW! Or go take a Focus ST for a test drive if you don't feel like visiting the best corner of the US smiling smiley
Please Login or Register to post a reply
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Mega Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 14,019

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 07, 2015 01:11PM
Quote
john vanlandingham

Mark, Turboford BS aside the 8v stock geometry Lima head all CNC ported to fuck is still outflowed by say a stock B234 Volvo head by large---26-28%---more...

Quote

John, this seems to be the point where sometimes the discussion takes a turn for the worse and lots of drama gets started and for no good reason really. So to help prevent that I want to stress that I appreciate your opinions and that I am not trying to question you to be a dick or whatever. I am in no way upset or angry or anything, so.....smileys with beer

Beer to you too..We ARE talking about parts....they are the subject...not how we "feel" about them or if we "like" them...



Quote

The aluminum svo cnc head isn't stock geometry. It bolts on to the stock head but was designed with "better-er-er" geometry or at least that is my understanding.

Well "geometry" is kinda a vague word...and this very idea has been kicked around over on Turdboatpricks where some young guy signed on and announced he is going to cast a new head for the Volvos for $500 delivered and its going to flow like (can't remember exactly because I don't remember bullshit very well) but some crazy figure higher than the documented best , seriously reworked 8v Volvo heads in the whole world and way more than the Volvo 16v....
and that with using stock intake and exhaust manifolds...and this with stock 44mm in and 35mm ex valve sizes...eye rolling smiley

It was asked 'If the manifolds are stock, and that means the port positioning up/down is stock at the face of the head, and if the motor will use stock cams--which means the valves are in the same position in the cylinder this means the ports must begin in the same place and end in the same place as stock...(agreed)....this leaves just the short port length and the very short approach to the valve seat to accomplish what is basically a miracle.....well in excess of documented flows on very modified heads....

Here is a typical unrehersed reaction to the guy's flow figures:


Can we get an angelic choir here?

On the face of it it is folly... Sorta an "If this, then that" If stock port position, height, size, then......some small improvements can be made---but not magic doubling of flow..

Volvo head like the Lima head has ports approaching the valves at a very low approach..Lima is worse on intake and Volvo worse on exhaust.
Low approach means the port must do a full 90* turn to get to the seat.

Not good for flow.

So all that said, the Esslinger aluminum STOCK position everything head is pretty---I've fondled them---and very pretty finish.....but same insane angles front and rear, same low approach...meh.
At least its lighter, less himia (sorta like a hernia but for guys) lifting it, and aluminum is better on heat so MOAR BEWSTeye rolling smiley whoopie.

Their ARCA head...oh mah gawd, that's nice. Look at it...It corresponds to the "Two Valve Evo" head made by Motordesign in Sweden

We talked about it here:
http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,93517,page=3


Quote

I'm a bit curious where you get such a specific number. 26-28%.

Basically 2+2 ing claims for stuff here against documented stuff at
http://www.topplocksverkstan.se/


Quote

Is that just because of the valve area being greater or do you have specific flow numbers?


Some of both, and using my eyes...

Quote

Boport racing, even though he may be a scumbag in some peoples eyes,

The Understatement of the Week Award goes to Mark Hille in Cornyeticult!!

Quote

did specific flow rates and the numbers seem to represent a bit lower of a percentage difference. Granted, I think the B234 head has the potential to outperform an 8 valve head for sure but it seems all the lima guys who are putting them on their cars end up with motors that produce ok HP from 3000rpm to 5000rpm. Its not until you spend $800 on cams, $300 on adjustable cam gears to retard them, and $120 on stiffer valve springs that the HP/TQ goes up to impressive levels and past 5000rpm.

Note: I always compared valve area but recently was corrected in this by some older guys who have been high level drag race engine builders (one won AHRA Top Fuel title once)..They said compare valve circumference instead...

And yeah the design of the ports and valve sizes means the B234 thing can outflow the fuck out of a Lima---if the design is utilised optimally.... But not if the Lima is all swoot and has a nasty ass cam and the B234 guy retains the limp, lazy weenie stock cams....
I've sold TONS---who knows 20-30 sets---of pistons and rods to B234 turbo guys and ALL who have sent dyno sheets show a lazy climb to a high peak torque at around 4600 rpm and a peak HP at around 5500...Not at all impressive...The cams are lame.
So either turbo or n.a. the thing wants cams---that's why I made a pile of cam cores:



So that we could choose real profiles for what we are doing either n.a. or turbo rally

And made them for the 8v motors as well..

THEN we can compare a bad-ass Lima head with a bad ass cam to a Volvo head with a bad ass cam...



Quote

And what about squish? That makes up for a little on the 8 valve head no?

Squish is squish and we want that on any motor but don't forget a big deal about "squish" is the quench effect...the cooling of the circumference of the piston by getting it as cloase as we dare to the relatively nice cool head quench pads and that applies to 8v or 16v, turbo or n.a., Ford Lima, Volvo 8v, 16v Durtec or Ecoboost...

And so far all this talk of flow is one thing---getting a good gulp of air in...But next comes what we do with that gulp of air and there the 16v pent rood, narrow angle (39 degrees between valves) compact combustion chamber right over the center of the piston with a sparkie plug in the perfect position really begins to shine....the design itself is far more detonation resistant than any bathtub shaped chamber with a pluf way over the fuck on one side.




Quote

A lima intake ported and polished doesn't seem to be any type of restriction from what I understand.

Meh. in a turbo application fuck it, the charge is going in. in n.a its vomit...


Quote

The exhaust manifold yes. $600 to $800 later for a header and your good to go. Build it yourself and your talking $350?

Meh again. Its ugly but reliable... I wish somebody would make one that positioned the turbo so we could use stock Cossie connecting hoses and have the same quick change capabilities as YB has..
And in all this theoretical talk it all depends on what power the goal is, and what KIND of delivery..
and for what price..


Quote

Or you could just blow on it harder.

Yep especially if you actuall make some efforts at assembling it right---the question never addressed in the "caused 3 DNFs".....
But there are serious limits with motors with bores over 86-87mm, and with iron heads....And Lima and Volvo B23 are 96mm bore... They are time limited just because of the bore size and the time it takes to burn that distance--in a way a motor with 82mm or 85/86mm isn't...




Quote

A T3 is good to at least 23 psi.

At least, depending on the model...about 399BHP for some models--like TB0340

Quote

You just need a way to deal with the heat. hot smiley haha.

Yep: right rad, right oil cooler, right intercooler....know good stuff exists....just get it...

Quote

What is the point of any of this though?

Good question

Quote

It is to have a car with reasonable power and better than reasonable reliability for as cheap and easy as it can be had, no?

I don't know. Smarter guys than me are making the decisions to suit themselves....


Quote

Is it safe to say that oil cooling a pretty stock Lima is cheaper than putting in an ecoboost?

Well oil cooling and (gasp!) just breaking down and stripping one down (zero cost) , surfacing the block ($80) and checking top ring side clearance (zero cost) and checking the condition if the oil pump, and assembling...bearings are $30 for rods and $55 for mains if you actually need them...$300 for forged flat top piston set---for the poor bastids who must obey the no-turbo for noobs bullshit...




Quote

When would YOU make the jump?

back in 1997...YBG

Quote

Those $175 motors....what is a realistic ball park (not the cheapest way ever possible) the average xratty rally racer would have to spend to put an ecoboost in an xratty?

Ecoboost you'll have to ask the experts...

Duratec 2300 in addition to core motor say
rods: $240
Pistons: $360-720 for good forged
Mazdog whatever oil pump....$?

KEYWAYS CUT for crank and cam gears....$? (no key ways anywhere, everything is 'spossed to stay by willpower, no bearing tang grooves in the rods, because no bearing tang on the bearings...

Steel flywheel---I make 'em but somebody certainly has a cheaper thing than $325-340 and using a know good KNOWN pressure plate..I'm sure the others are some nice color and say "Stage Two" so that's good enough for most guys..


Quote

I'm just curious what you think it could be done for.

All depends on who is doing it...what skills, what knowledge base...
Who can say?



Quote

I mean would you strip those motors and put bearings in them or just run them?

Since I have weak X-ray fu, I consider and motor not running suspect, so they were "cores" and were torn down for examination.


Quote

Did you get the ecu with them?

No they were sold as is pulled--one from a friend's shop, one from a "Rally spare parts storage depot" cynically called by elitists a "junk yard".



Quote

Would you run the Miata 6 speed or buy the bell housing adaptor for a T5?


Depends.. I also bought a pick up manual trans just to saw the bellhousing off of to study if i could make a better T5 bellhousing.... Me-otter ain't bad but no common, no known anything, and no known prices for rebuild stuff....see the presumptions i make--presuming rebuilds..Most just throw trannies away and buy another...cheaper. easier...


Quote

This may not fit in this thread but turbo lag, even though it is a T3, is something I have noticed making me slower. Even if its only 1/2 second before power gets to the wheels it seems slow when things are tight. If you keep your right foot in it a little it helps but because I have the brake booster on it, it messes with my brakes. Oh if only I had time to take it off... How is the ecoboost with turbo lag?

Maybe wrong thread but that should stop all the ex-spurts for telling you you need a Holset of a new Borg Warner because new "Technology"..

Couldn't possibly be any bastic thing like cam timing--or ya bought some dumb A237 cam or you have a weenie pipe..
Can't say..

So,,we still drinking beer?smileys with beer

Good...



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
MarkHille
Mark Hille
Mod Moderator
Location: The hills of CT
Join Date: 10/04/2011
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 134

Rally Car:
I have two crap boxes


Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 07, 2015 08:24PM
I do remember hearing that even though the volvo head has little sqwish that its chamber is more efficient and less prone to detonation than the d shaped.

I have heard a lot of good things about the new efr turbos from people i trust but at $1700 its way to much to have a spare. Meh...thats too much to own one.

How much do you sell those cam sets for?

I dont know anything about the miata trans. So they are strong enough?
Please Login or Register to post a reply
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Mega Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 14,019

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 07, 2015 09:40PM
Quote
MarkHille
I do remember hearing that even though the volvo head has little sqwish that its chamber is more efficient and less prone to detonation than the d shaped.

Vastly more efficient in terms of combustion effciency...That's why from just a few high end cars 30 years ago, its hard to think of a car head that is not Pent roof 4 valve. And the flip side of power is effciency, same thing , different focus...
As for quench/squish : didya look at the link to topplockverkstan.se?

Not enough? and you want some compression and don't want a gigantic dome (to interrupt flame propagation)..Add some...

B234:



That was turbo, bigger chamber. Here's n.a.


add some..
Carve it up:


Thats more compression from smaller chamber and more quench..

And the one thing nice about big bores is the room ther is for bigger valve(s)

Remember the circumfrence thing?
1 x 44 = 138.23mm circumfr.
1 x 34 = 106.8mm but 2 x 34 =213.6

213.6 vs 138...

You can shove in a Volvo or Lima 46mm intake valves

46mm = 144
OK with seats re-done 48 = 150.8

Still a big chunk less than 213.6 which is stock size..
There's room for as large as 39mm intakes

39mm = 122.5...........x 2...........245mm

Thats crazy stuff there...

So if the thing can in n.a form gulp in such huge amounts, as turbo it needs only a little boost and mild ass cams...


Quote

I have heard a lot of good things about the new efr turbos from people i trust but at $1700 its way to much to have a spare. Meh...thats too much to own one.


Yeah. not having a spare is irresponsible..Its madness..
What did you say your turbo was?

Quote

How much do you sell those cam sets for?

I don't say, I was contracted by a very astute shop to make the cores.. Cost him 1/3 the price he was quoted in Virginia...

I was first customer to buy some back though...


Quote

I dont know anything about the miata trans. So they are strong enough?

Who knows?
The ratios are, aside from the load it on the trailer First---awfully damn nice:
Gear Ratios (6-speed Manual)
1st - 3.76:1eye rolling smiley
2nd - 2.27:1
3rd - 1.65:1
4th - 1.26:1
5th - 1.00:1
6th - 0.84:1

Combine that with say a 4.5 axle ratio or better still 4.88 and you have a a ticket ride---if they hold up..



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
RALLYRS
Mike Ball
Elite Moderator
Location: Simi Valley,Ca.
Join Date: 07/15/2011
Age: Possibly Wise
Posts: 365

Rally Car:
2.3 Duratec ZX3 yard art...2.5 coming some day..


Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 09, 2015 12:55AM
Ratfink's swap of a 2.3 Duratec from a Focus into an XR-link below.

Remember- the 2.3(and 2.5)Duratecs are taller than the 2.0 Duratecs.

As mentioned before- his project was eventually abandoned unfortunately.


http://forum.merkurclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=10278
Please Login or Register to post a reply
tdrrally
edward mucklow
Professional Moderator
Location: charleston,wv
Join Date: 05/31/2011
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 745

Rally Car:
ford mustang LX 5.0, 1973 VW Beetle



Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 12, 2015 03:21PM
ecoboost 2.0 in a fox chassis

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread.php?150082-Ecoboost-swap-in-a-fox/page2

sweet car



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!
Please Login or Register to post a reply
buerckner
Andrew Buerckner
Junior Moderator
Location: Canberra, Australia
Join Date: 10/22/2011
Age: Fossilized
Posts: 120

Rally Car:
Daihatsu Charade GTti DOHC Turbo, and Mazda MX-5(miata) Turbo(bent)


Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 14, 2015 09:39PM
Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote

I dont know anything about the miata trans. So they are strong enough?

Who knows?
The ratios are, aside from the load it on the trailer First---awfully damn nice:
Gear Ratios (6-speed Manual)
1st - 3.76:1eye rolling smiley
2nd - 2.27:1
3rd - 1.65:1
4th - 1.26:1
5th - 1.00:1
6th - 0.84:1

Combine that with say a 4.5 axle ratio or better still 4.88 and you have a a ticket ride---if they hold up..

Mines done 3 seasons of rallying with a 4.4:1 rear full spool diff and held up.
Including using flat shift and antilag.
Change the oil after 5 events, diff oil every 2 events.

We blew a few up on the circuit version of the same car just with a bit more power.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Robert Culbertson
Out of this dumpster fire
Super Moderator
Join Date: 08/15/2010
Posts: 1,236



Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 18, 2015 07:48PM
Andrew, were you running the NC 6spd or the older NA/NB 6spd? What torque was the engine putting out?

At Olympus the 3rd gear decided to shed some weight. SOMEHOW (don't ask me how), the car was able to finish a few more stages and make it all the way back to service.
Cleaned some junk out, flushed the trans, filled it, and ran it. I ended up doing that 3 times, once each service.

Made it all the way through the second day without 3rd and 4th. We got lucky.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2015 07:52PM by Robert Culbertson.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Attachments:
open | download - image.jpg (49.6 KB)
image.jpg
Pete
Pete Remner
Professional Moderator
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Join Date: 01/11/2006
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 1,937


Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 18, 2015 09:01PM
Why is that surprising? I've had enough experience with teeth-shedding Mazda transmissions that everything is fine once the parts have self-clearanced. The scary one was the last one because it made no awful noises, just bang immediately after shifting to 3rd and then nothing. No awful garbage disposal eating silverware noises like normal, just "nothing". The lack of noise made me think, well maybe it's a shift fork problem? Then I drained the teeth out of the trans. Always was able to drive them around if it was a "gear" that did it (have stripped the input shaft teeth, which is mucho more sucko) and usually put a couple thousand more on until I had time to bother changing the trans. Wide powerbands only need 2-3 gears anyway, right?

Only bugger is every time a trans does that, it destroys the slip yoke on the driveshaft. Good driveshafts are harder to find than good transmissions...



Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2015 09:03PM by Pete.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
buerckner
Andrew Buerckner
Junior Moderator
Location: Canberra, Australia
Join Date: 10/22/2011
Age: Fossilized
Posts: 120

Rally Car:
Daihatsu Charade GTti DOHC Turbo, and Mazda MX-5(miata) Turbo(bent)


Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 20, 2015 09:32PM
Quote
Robert Culbertson
Andrew, were you running the NC 6spd or the older NA/NB 6spd? What torque was the engine putting out?

NB Turbo 6-speed.
Torques.... dunno I'd have to look it up but has over 160kw from 4500rpm up and peaks over 185rwkw.
only running 12psi boost, stock engine,turbo etc just an Autronic SM4 and E85

EDIT useing online torque calculator thingy about 220ft/lb (I reserve the right for this to be completely wrong :-) )



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2015 09:35PM by buerckner.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Robert Culbertson
Out of this dumpster fire
Super Moderator
Join Date: 08/15/2010
Posts: 1,236



Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 21, 2015 10:37AM
The torque output from the ecoboost is 350lb-ft @ 21psi. That might explain the difference in success rates with the mazda 6spd smiling smiley
Please Login or Register to post a reply
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Mega Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 14,019

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 21, 2015 12:52PM
Quote
Robert Culbertson
The torque output from the ecoboost is 350lb-ft @ 21psi. That might explain the difference in success rates with the mazda 6spd smiling smiley

Well then, that was good planning.eye rolling smiley



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login