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2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To

Posted by Robert Culbertson 
MarkHille
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Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 06, 2015 01:21PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
......but the idea was obvious and indeed I have said to every guy asking about Xratties since---DON'T SPEND MONEY BUILDING LIMA----put it aside for a Duratec conversion.....


I don't remember ever hearing or reading this from you. I thought you were more along the lines of leave it stock and spend your money on more important stuff. So you are for swapping to ecoboosts?


I'm curious what the total amount that was actually spent but I feel kind of rude asking for it. A low ball of the prices you put up were $4,150. Just playing the devils advocate....

Buy a decent used 2.3 turbo motor: $400
Deck motor: $100
Rings: $150
New bearings: $300
Sell head: -$300
Esslinger svo aluminum head: $1700
CNC head: $500
Cam: $500
Megasquirt:$700

Total: $4,050

The head bolts on, you loose 30 pounds with the aluminum head, and there is no fabrication except ditching the vam. You have to wire the megasquirt and have it tuned. If you already have a transmission, clutch, driveshaft, turbo, spares, etc, etc, it would be a tough call for me. Exhaust is a wash. Oil cooling is a wash. Intake is a wash. My guess is they would perform pretty close. I'd lean towards the lima having more HP/TQ, maybe a quite a bit more depending on boost and timing, but I could be wrong.

The biggest benefit....it doesn't all have to be done at once.

But thanks for all the info. I appreciate it for sure!smileys with beer



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2015 01:24PM by MarkHille.
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Robert Culbertson
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Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 06, 2015 01:29PM
John, I wasn't able to inspect the motors with the head gasket and piston failures. Both times they ended up with Sean, but I'm sure he could shed some light on those failures.
I do know that at one point there was an injector failure and that could have caused enough damage to cause a meltdown a few rallies later.
I'm going to guess that most of the issues were exacerbated by the high water temps and no oil-to-air cooler.

I also didn't get a chance to weigh them (which was a really dumb move). I do know that the transmission weighs 85lbs, 13lb flywheel, not sure on the clutch weight.

I can't find exact engine weight for the 2.0. I'll check the packing slip when I get home. It should weight ~350-360lbs as it ships in the crate (full wiring harness, full intake including intercooler and air box). For reference the little 1.0 ecoboost with iron block weighs in at 215lbs and the V6 is 420lbs. So the 2.0 will be somewhere between those smiling smiley

http://fordaddict.com/ford-ecoboost-engines/
http://www.full-race.com/articles/inside-the-4-cylinder-ecoboost-2-liter.html
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Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 06, 2015 01:31PM
Not that you guys can't google it yourself..but I was bored......

If you need to have a Duratec under your XR's hood and don't want to cough up Ecoboost cash.. here's some links concerning regular Duratec power in an XR:

http://forum.merkurclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=19846

http://pmmotorsportsny.com/sooyung.html


I Believe the guy known as "ratfink" in the top link's thread above abandoned the project and car ended up here:

http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?7,103310
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Robert Culbertson
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Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 06, 2015 01:42PM
Quote
MarkHille
Quote
john vanlandingham
......but the idea was obvious and indeed I have said to every guy asking about Xratties since---DON'T SPEND MONEY BUILDING LIMA----put it aside for a Duratec conversion.....


I don't remember ever hearing or reading this from you. I thought you were more along the lines of leave it stock and spend your money on more important stuff. So you are for swapping to ecoboosts?


I'm curious what the total amount that was actually spent but I feel kind of rude asking for it. A low ball of the prices you put up were $4,150. Just playing the devils advocate....

Buy a decent used 2.3 turbo motor: $400
Deck motor: $100
Rings: $150
New bearings: $300
Sell head: -$300
Esslinger svo aluminum head: $1700
CNC head: $500
Cam: $500
Megasquirt:$700

Total: $4,050

The head bolts on, you loose 30 pounds with the aluminum head, and there is no fabrication except ditching the vam. You have to wire the megasquirt and have it tuned. If you already have a transmission, clutch, driveshaft, turbo, spares, etc, etc, it would be a tough call for me. Exhaust is a wash. Oil cooling is a wash. Intake is a wash. My guess is they would perform pretty close. I'd lean towards the lima having more HP/TQ, maybe a quite a bit more depending on boost and timing, but I could be wrong.

The biggest benefit....it doesn't all have to be done at once.

But thanks for all the info. I appreciate it for sure!smileys with beer

When researching aluminum heads it looked like there were two options. Stock port geometry in aluminum ($1700), and then much better ports/chambers and set up with valves and springs for $3000.
Another thing to consider is the tuning of the ECU. Scheduling dyno time and a tuner will set you back at least $750 in Portland.

The best part about the ecoboost is that it's making those power numbers on a fully stock engine with a tune supplied by Ford Racing with a warranty, fail safes, and a limp mode.

I feel that the lima is still a good engine (as are Volvo redblocks), and they can surely make a ton of power and be reliable. But the amount of power you can get out of a newer stock engine (it being much less stressed) is amazing. A friend of mine daily drives a 450-500whp mazda speed3. It's not stock by any means, but it drives like a normal speed3 with just slightly more lag. Stock internals (bolt ons and a tune) he was sitting north of an honest 350whp. Modern engines and tuning are absolutely amazeballlzzzzzzzzzz
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Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 06, 2015 02:32PM
Quote
Robert Culbertson

The best part about the ecoboost is that it's making those power numbers on a fully stock engine with a tune supplied by Ford Racing with a warranty, fail safes, and a limp mode.

I don't think this can be overstated. Having a near stock modern engine is great. There is so much less to worry about. Saves brain power and time to focus on actually rallying or learning to drive better.
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NoCoast
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Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 06, 2015 03:04PM
So, what kind of power are we talking about?

I am probably going LS power in my next build if I ever decide to build a non-Subaru rally car in the future.



Grant Hughes
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Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 06, 2015 03:05PM
For the record:

1. I do not recall JVL ever advocating a Duratech conversion for the Merkur.

2. I don't like XRs. I have built several for customers but I would never own one.



Robert.

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john vanlandingham
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Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 06, 2015 03:20PM
Quote
Rallymech
For the record:

1. I do not recall JVL ever advocating a Duratech conversion for the Merkur.

2. I don't like XRs. I have built several for customers but I would never own one.

Yeah?
Whatever...shows us how well you listen when I advise others..Oh wait you're not listening when I advise others?...


You're NOT an Xrattie guy... you're just working on them..

I like 'em, and I like other nice simple cars....

Hmm i wonder what "likig" a car has to do with its effectiveness or suitability?



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Robert Culbertson
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Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 06, 2015 03:21PM
Quote
Rallymech
For the record:

1. I do not recall JVL ever advocating a Duratech conversion for the Merkur.

2. I don't like XRs. I have built several for customers but I would never own one.

Bwahahaha! The mutual hate is strong on these.
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MarkHille
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Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 06, 2015 03:44PM
Quote
Robert Culbertson

When researching aluminum heads it looked like there were two options. Stock port geometry in aluminum ($1700), and then much better ports/chambers and set up with valves and springs for $3000.
Another thing to consider is the tuning of the ECU. Scheduling dyno time and a tuner will set you back at least $750 in Portland.

The best part about the ecoboost is that it's making those power numbers on a fully stock engine with a tune supplied by Ford Racing with a warranty, fail safes, and a limp mode.

I feel that the lima is still a good engine (as are Volvo redblocks), and they can surely make a ton of power and be reliable. But the amount of power you can get out of a newer stock engine (it being much less stressed) is amazing. A friend of mine daily drives a 450-500whp mazda speed3. It's not stock by any means, but it drives like a normal speed3 with just slightly more lag. Stock internals (bolt ons and a tune) he was sitting north of an honest 350whp. Modern engines and tuning are absolutely amazeballlzzzzzzzzzz

They will CNC that head for $500 (I included it in my price) and that puts the head at flow rates close to the arca head at the lift we would likely be seeing. And it is still a bolt on replacement head that uses the same intake and exhaust manifold. If anyone feels like reading. turboford.net

Megasquirt has fail safes and can be set up with a limp mode.

I will also say there is something to be said for the simplicity of older technology. I swapped turbos on the side of the road quick enough to catch back up to the rally only missing one stage, and that is including being stuck on the stage because they were repeating it. I would guess the mazda speed 3 would have been slightly more difficult and with slightly more shenanigans to figure out along the way.

I hope nothing I said comes across as augmentative. I'm simply trying to represent the other side of the fence. If anything it makes it a little less boring here. And it has seemed a bit boring around here lately.......smileys with beer

And Grant, LS is like cheating. haha
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Robert Culbertson
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Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 06, 2015 04:58PM
Mark, I didnt know that about the head. I saw the value for CNC work, but I didn't know what that gained.
I also don't see what you said as being argumentative. I hope you don't see me that way either. smileys with beer I come from a group of friends that would regularly sit down and talk/banter/discuss/argue many different aspects of motorsports engineering. John calls it a wank fest, I call it learning.

The ecoboost turbo should hot swap pretty easily, hopefully we don't have to... Since there's no spare right now.

I'm all for LS/V8 swaps now (except the price of a decent trans!). Pretty much a deal breaker for anyone racing in Canukistan though.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 06, 2015 05:50PM
Quote
MarkHille
Quote
Robert Culbertson

When researching aluminum heads it looked like there were two options. Stock port geometry in aluminum ($1700), and then much better ports/chambers and set up with valves and springs for $3000.
Another thing to consider is the tuning of the ECU. Scheduling dyno time and a tuner will set you back at least $750 in Portland.

The best part about the ecoboost is that it's making those power numbers on a fully stock engine with a tune supplied by Ford Racing with a warranty, fail safes, and a limp mode.

I feel that the lima is still a good engine (as are Volvo redblocks), and they can surely make a ton of power and be reliable. But the amount of power you can get out of a newer stock engine (it being much less stressed) is amazing. A friend of mine daily drives a 450-500whp mazda speed3. It's not stock by any means, but it drives like a normal speed3 with just slightly more lag. Stock internals (bolt ons and a tune) he was sitting north of an honest 350whp. Modern engines and tuning are absolutely amazeballlzzzzzzzzzz

They will CNC that head for $500 (I included it in my price) and that puts the head at flow rates close to the arca head at the lift we would likely be seeing. And it is still a bolt on replacement head that uses the same intake and exhaust manifold. If anyone feels like reading. turboford.net

Megasquirt has fail safes and can be set up with a limp mode.

I will also say there is something to be said for the simplicity of older technology. I swapped turbos on the side of the road quick enough to catch back up to the rally only missing one stage, and that is including being stuck on the stage because they were repeating it. I would guess the mazda speed 3 would have been slightly more difficult and with slightly more shenanigans to figure out along the way.

I hope nothing I said comes across as augmentative. I'm simply trying to represent the other side of the fence. If anything it makes it a little less boring here. And it has seemed a bit boring around here lately.......smileys with beer

And Grant, LS is like cheating. haha

Mark, Turboford BS aside the 8v stock geometry Lima head all CNC ported to fuck is still outflowed by say a stock B234 Volvo head by large---26-28%---more...

That's not even taking into account the truly appalling intake and exhaust manifolds.....

It is primarily because of the horrible stock ports and manifolds that I have always said "don't spend money" on a Lima... and i mean "build type" money...

I've gotten 3 Duratec 2.3s--one paid for by customer back in 02-03 and the other 2 later, paid $175 each including flywheel (ugh! a lump of iron)....
I like simple stuff so I have said just rods, pistons and you're done in the bottom end..In the head, cams and valve springs-----and if turbo, exhaust manifold...and a flywheel in steel (of course---and I just happen to make real nice flywheels)

and you're done.....

If N.a. add ITBs and a decent header and you can make all the power anybody needs...

And it will do things a LIMA can't---and weigh approimately 220 lbs vs whatever internet fables about weight you want to belive (a Lima is only 37lbs less than a Small Block Ford in the internet world most knowledge is glean from...think 8 pistons bigger than 4 weigh less, 8 rods about the same weigh less than 4, twice the iron for 2 four cylinder banks weigh less than one, 2 cast iron heads weigh less than 1...Its magik!!)

But one catch: for MOST people who work on and even race the LIMAs they are stupidly reliable.

And in unmodified turbo form make plenty enough power and deliver it good...Only annoying thing is the weight...

With a little work they can be pretty good in NA form--5.4 to 5.7" rods and lighter pistons, and sidedraft carbs or ITBs, some lumpy cam and that's about it..lotsa fun will follow.

That presumes some care in the execution and set up: a flat deck, a flat head, and a decent oil cooler ---and oil temp gauge and oil pressure.

But if a guy pops a headgasket and just throws another on and cracks a gawddamn Browntop and keeps driving well uh duh. never decks the block and just keeps feeding in gaskets well.....

Guess its the motor leading to 3 DNFs...
eye rolling smiley



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Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 06, 2015 06:40PM
Quote
Pete
This thread has my attention...

It looks expensive, but if you're starting with having to spend nearly that much money anyway, if it's better and easier to find parts for, why not?[/quote


$3-5k is a lot yes, not as expensive as 3 DNFs though



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Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 06, 2015 07:17PM
Quote
NoCoast
So, what kind of power are we talking about?

I am probably going LS power in my next build if I ever decide to build a non-Subaru rally car in the future.

I wouldn't do it, for the simple fact that it seems they have a wonderful propensity to disassemble themselves when pushed hard for long periods of time. I don't know if it is the pistons breaking or the cylinder walls failing, but they just sort of come apart when open-tracked. I can't see stage rally being any kinder or gentler.



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MarkHille
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Re: 2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
May 07, 2015 08:19AM
Quote
john vanlandingham

Mark, Turboford BS aside the 8v stock geometry Lima head all CNC ported to fuck is still outflowed by say a stock B234 Volvo head by large---26-28%---more...

John, this seems to be the point where sometimes the discussion takes a turn for the worse and lots of drama gets started and for no good reason really. So to help prevent that I want to stress that I appreciate your opinions and that I am not trying to question you to be a dick or whatever. I am in no way upset or angry or anything, so.....smileys with beer

The aluminum svo cnc head isn't stock geometry. It bolts on to the stock head but was designed with better geometry or at least that is my understanding.

I'm a bit curious where you get such a specific number. 26-28%. Is that just because of the valve area being greater or do you have specific flow numbers? Boport racing, even though he may be a scumbag in some peoples eyes, did specific flow rates and the numbers seem to represent a bit lower of a percentage difference. Granted, I think the B234 head has the potential to outperform an 8 valve head for sure but it seems all the lima guys who are putting them on their cars end up with motors that produce ok HP from 3000rpm to 5000rpm. Its not until you spend $800 on cams, $300 on adjustable cam gears to retard them, and $120 on stiffer valve springs that the HP/TQ goes up to impressive levels and past 5000rpm.

And what about squish? That makes up for a little on the 8 valve head no?

A lima intake ported and polished doesn't seem to be any type of restriction from what I understand. The exhaust manifold yes. $600 to $800 later for a header and your good to go. Build it yourself and your talking $350?

Or you could just blow on it harder. A T3 is good to at least 23 psi. You just need a way to deal with the heat. hot smiley haha.

What is the point of any of this though? It is to have a car with reasonable power and better than reasonable reliability for as cheap and easy as it can be had, no? Is it safe to say that oil cooling a pretty stock Lima is cheaper than putting in an ecoboost? When would YOU make the jump?

Those $175 motors....what is a realistic ball park (not the cheapest way ever possible) the average xratty rally racer would have to spend to put an ecoboost in an xratty? I'm just curious what you think it could be done for. I mean would you strip those motors and put bearings in them or just run them? Did you get the ecu with them? Would you run the Miata 6 speed or buy the bell housing adaptor for a T5?

This may not fit in this thread but turbo lag, even though it is a T3, is something I have noticed making me slower. Even if its only 1/2 second before power gets to the wheels it seems slow when things are tight. If you keep your right foot in it a little it helps but because I have the brake booster on it, it messes with my brakes. Oh if only I had time to take it off... How is the ecoboost with turbo lag?
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