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VW motorsports transmission parts

Posted by Kurt Thiel 
Kurt Thiel
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VW motorsports transmission parts
May 14, 2015 02:52AM
i am looking for a 020 VW motorsports gear set, parts, or a complete transmission . Anyone have any ideas on locating any parts or complete gearbox?
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Re: VW motorsports transmission parts
May 14, 2015 09:20AM
http://www.mts-motorsport.com/epages/61752271.sf/en_US/?ObjectPath=/Shops/61752271/Categories/Getriebetechnik/Gangpaare/%22VW%20020%20/%2002K%20Getriebe%22



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Towona
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Re: VW motorsports transmission parts
May 14, 2015 10:10AM
Did you look at that stuff Jasneil had for sale? (the guy of the VW rally FB page)



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Kurt Thiel
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Re: VW motorsports transmission parts
May 14, 2015 10:28AM
yes, I did, my only hesitation is sending a money transfer to Kenya. Do you know him and have had any dealings with him? he has a gear set and it is what I am looking for but it is expensive, and in Kenya. the mts motorsports doesn't offer 1st and second gears but I have dealt with mts before and other than the foreign bank money transfer it was easy and I had my parts quickly.
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Towona
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Re: VW motorsports transmission parts
May 14, 2015 10:31AM
All I know is Tom B seems to have vouched for him. Might be worth getting in touch with Tom directly.



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wildert
Brian Klausen
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Re: VW motorsports transmission parts
May 14, 2015 02:32PM
Quote
Kurt Thiel
the mts motorsports doesn't offer 1st and second gears but I have dealt with mts before and other than the foreign bank money transfer it was easy and I had my parts quickly.

But they do: http://www.mts-motorsport.com/epages/61752271.sf/en_US/?ObjectPath=/Shops/61752271/Products/%22GEKORE%20001%5B1%5D%22

It is part of an entire kit, yes - but that is because it complete dog engagement for all gears.
Basically all new internals.

If you are looking for synchro kits, then you are hard pressed with 020. Not much of that stuff around.

Input shafts do pop up on German eBay every now and then though - not too pricey I find actually.
They tend to require a motorsports FD too though. Something like the 4.64:1 that I used to have, along with a 3rd, 4th and 5th that makes sense. MTS has that stuff though - as you already know.



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Re: VW motorsports transmission parts
May 14, 2015 10:12PM
Kurt, that ring you put in my trans was from MTS... They got it to me faster than UPS got it out to you!



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Erik Christiansen
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Re: VW motorsports transmission parts
May 15, 2015 11:14AM
FYI, I emailed MTS and they told me they plan to offer 020 input shafts with first and second gears by the end of the year. Ratios will be 2.5/1.78, 2.72/2.06, and 2.5/2.06. No idea on price, but if you're not in a rush you can wait for them and build your own vwms-ratio gearset with new parts. Also, they told me their plan is stick with 8v dimensions (small input shaft, 8v style 4th and 5th gears) so that everything they sell is compatible.

Personally I bought 3-4-5 gears from MTS now since I had my transmission apart, with the knowledge that I could always install 1-2 later down the road if I wanted to go all out. I copied Brian's box with 1.68/1.35/1.17 with a 3.94 final drive. This should work well with a 2.72/2.06 if I want to upgrade in the future.

One surprise I discovered is that the case needs to be clearanced to fit the larger gears. In retrospect this seems obvious. I thought installation would be as simple as a standard 020 rebuild, but it is a more involved.

If I were starting from scratch I would go with the vwms 8v ratios as opposed to the 16v ratios:

vwms 8v: 2.5/1.79/1.42/1.17/1.03 4.46fd
vwms 16v: 2.72/2.06/1.68/1.43/1.26 4.2fd?

The 16v ratios are SUPER close, and probably will not work well unless you can rev to 8k rpm. With a stock 7,200rpm redline and big tires a 4.2 final drive will limit you to 95mph. You can get to 109mph with a stock 3.667 final drive, but first would be very tall. As a bonus, the 8v gears are physically smaller which means less time with a dremel clearancing the case. And if you're on a tight budget, you might be able to get away with a stock 3rd gear (1.44:1 instead of 1.42:1).

Just my two cents. Hope this helps!
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john vanlandingham
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Re: VW motorsports transmission parts
May 15, 2015 12:44PM
Quote
Erik Christiansen
FYI, I emailed MTS and they told me they plan to offer 020 input shafts with first and second gears by the end of the year. Ratios will be 2.5/1.78, 2.72/2.06, and 2.5/2.06. No idea on price, but if you're not in a rush you can wait for them and build your own vwms-ratio gearset with new parts. Also, they told me their plan is stick with 8v dimensions (small input shaft, 8v style 4th and 5th gears) so that everything they sell is compatible.

Personally I bought 3-4-5 gears from MTS now since I had my transmission apart, with the knowledge that I could always install 1-2 later down the road if I wanted to go all out. I copied Brian's box with 1.68/1.35/1.17 with a 3.94 final drive. This should work well with a 2.72/2.06 if I want to upgrade in the future.

One surprise I discovered is that the case needs to be clearanced to fit the larger gears. In retrospect this seems obvious. I thought installation would be as simple as a standard 020 rebuild, but it is a more involved.

If I were starting from scratch I would go with the vwms 8v ratios as opposed to the 16v ratios:

vwms 8v: 2.5/1.79/1.42/1.17/1.03 4.46fd
vwms 16v: 2.72/2.06/1.68/1.43/1.26 4.2fd?

The 16v ratios are SUPER close, and probably will not work well unless you can rev to 8k rpm. With a stock 7,200rpm redline and big tires a 4.2 final drive will limit you to 95mph. You can get to 109mph with a stock 3.667 final drive, but first would be very tall. As a bonus, the 8v gears are physically smaller which means less time with a dremel clearancing the case. And if you're on a tight budget, you might be able to get away with a stock 3rd gear (1.44:1 instead of 1.42:1).

Just my two cents. Hope this helps!

Erik this is from long long memory when I was buying stuff in Sweden more often than now..Sweden being the only country --aside from USA/Canada---where you could say VW was "popular"---and that due mainly to:VW Sweden supported rally and price.
A lotta guys i spoke with were guys selling their old Saab V4 stuff--which is what I have rallied.

At the time initially I'd see most of the VW boxes being sold second hand described as "8v gearset" and only later did i start seeing "16V gearset..1988 it was.
Always saw "8v" sets with 5.08 final drive.
That made sense and was consistant with Ford, Opel, Saab 99, Volvo all which used 5.1 or 5.15 final drive...even my Saab was right aound there in overall top gear ratio---ring and pinion was 5.43 x 0,92 4th for right around 5.0-5.1.

So I made a point to ask several guys and some suppliers what the 16v ratios were and why the 4.2 or 4.24 final drive meant

In short what they said is "all the ratios come out the same, just different combinations"

And The main thing is they wanted "bigger pinion that doesn't cut so deep into the shaft cause we had failures..."

So less reduction in the final drive, more reduction in the gears (which stresses the gears more but means the pinion could be larger)

4.2 x 1.26 comes out 5.3
My memory was they did at the time 4.24 x 1.16, right about 5.0:1

So maybe the 3.9 x 1.26= 4.91 might be the thing.
with a 60cm tire and a little over 7200-7400 you can still get 105mph
Is 3.9 common?
Kurt was saying my memory was faulty on the commonness and that it was an old GTI 4 speed ratio..



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wildert
Brian Klausen
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Re: VW motorsports transmission parts
May 16, 2015 06:44AM
Quote
Erik Christiansen
FYI, I emailed MTS and they told me they plan to offer 020 input shafts with first and second gears by the end of the year. Ratios will be 2.5/1.78, 2.72/2.06, and 2.5/2.06. No idea on price, but if you're not in a rush you can wait for them and build your own vwms-ratio gearset with new parts.

That is veeeery interesting I stink...
Well, depends on the price obviously, and it also kinda tempts me out of the whole "stop-upgrading-that-old-shed-and-put-the-money-towards-saving-for-a-newer-car-with-better-everything"-principle that I have been trying to follow...

Quote

Personally I bought 3-4-5 gears from MTS now since I had my transmission apart, with the knowledge that I could always install 1-2 later down the road if I wanted to go all out. I copied Brian's box with 1.68/1.35/1.17 with a 3.94 final drive. This should work well with a 2.72/2.06 if I want to upgrade in the future.

Weeell... dunno about that - I took it through my spreadsheet, and the drop from 2nd to 3rd becomes smaller than the drop from 3rd to 4th - with a 7500 rpm red line it's 1383 and 1473 rpms respectively - that's a bit weird in my book smiling smiley.
A 3rd around 1.63-1.64 would be better. Unfortunately MTS doesn't have that.
Alternatively MTS' own 1.43 4th would be cool, but requires a 1.26 5th as well - so thats ~880€ extra worth of gears smiling smiley.

Actually the stock 2.12 2nd would work pretty well with the 2.72 1st and the gears we have, I think.
Drops with a 7500 rpm redline are:
1st to 2nd: 1654 rpm.
2nd to 3rd: 1557 rpm.
3rd to 4th: 1473 rpm.
4th to 5th: 1000 rpm.

It will depend on whether a stock 2nd can be used, and again price whether it's worth the effort.

Quote

If I were starting from scratch I would go with the vwms 8v ratios as opposed to the 16v ratios:

vwms 8v: 2.5/1.79/1.42/1.17/1.03 4.46fd
vwms 16v: 2.72/2.06/1.68/1.43/1.26 4.2fd?

The 16v ratios are SUPER close, and probably will not work well unless you can rev to 8k rpm. With a stock 7,200rpm redline and big tires a 4.2 final drive will limit you to 95mph. You can get to 109mph with a stock 3.667 final drive, but first would be very tall. As a bonus, the 8v gears are physically smaller which means less time with a dremel clearancing the case. And if you're on a tight budget, you might be able to get away with a stock 3rd gear (1.44:1 instead of 1.42:1).

Heh - funny - I disagree smiling smiley. I would definitely go for the 16V. Maybe a different FD - though not in my neck of the woods - and I suspect that with tall gravel tires I wouldn't in yours either.
With stock 7200 rpm redline it's not that close in my oppinion - but hey - that's just me smiling smiley.

But 7200 rpm on a stock 16V - PL that is - does not add up to me. Isn't peak power somewhere around 6300 or something? Just because the limiter is at 7200 rpm, doesn't mean that it is a good place to shift smiling smiley.
Then again - a bit of head work a some better cams - and then 7500 is relevant again smiling smiley.

We rarely see 5th anyway, so I would happily trade the almost-never-used top speed for ratios being just a tad closer, with the benefit of the engine not dropping out of power band as easy.


Quote
john vanlandingham
At the time initially I'd see most of the VW boxes being sold second hand described as "8v gearset" and only later did i start seeing "16V gearset..1988 it was.
Always saw "8v" sets with 5.08 final drive.
That made sense and was consistant with Ford, Opel, Saab 99, Volvo all which used 5.1 or 5.15 final drive...even my Saab was right aound there in overall top gear ratio---ring and pinion was 5.43 x 0,92 4th for right around 5.0-5.1.

So I made a point to ask several guys and some suppliers what the 16v ratios were and why the 4.2 or 4.24 final drive meant

In short what they said is "all the ratios come out the same, just different combinations"

And The main thing is they wanted "bigger pinion that doesn't cut so deep into the shaft cause we had failures..."

So less reduction in the final drive, more reduction in the gears (which stresses the gears more but means the pinion could be larger)

4.2 x 1.26 comes out 5.3
My memory was they did at the time 4.24 x 1.16, right about 5.0:1

So maybe the 3.9 x 1.26= 4.91 might be the thing.

with a 60cm tire and a little over 7200-7400 you can still get 105mph
Is 3.9 common?
Kurt was saying my memory was faulty on the commonness and that it was an old GTI 4 speed ratio..

To me for the 020 the very high FD's does not make a lot of sense. At least not for the hobbyist.
As you mention the pinion shaft gear becomes VERY small and looses strength.
Secondly there are about zero gears around that support that very low gearing, unless the engine is VERY high spec - like 9000 rpm or so, and/or the events are ultra Mickey Mouse-twisty stuff.
8000 rpm red line, 5,08 and MTS' own 020 dog engagement kit, tops out at around about 100-and-a-bit mph on stock wheel size.



Brgrds
Brian

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john vanlandingham
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Re: VW motorsports transmission parts
May 16, 2015 12:52PM
Quote
wildert


That is veeeery interesting I stink...
Well, depends on the price obviously, and it also kinda tempts me out of the whole "stop-upgrading-that-old-shed-and-put-the-money-towards-saving-for-a-newer-car-with-better-everything"-principle that I have been trying to follow...

To me for the 020 the very high FD's does not make a lot of sense. At least not for the hobbyist.
As you mention the pinion shaft gear becomes VERY small and looses strength.
Secondly there are about zero gears around that support that very low gearing, unless the engine is VERY high spec - like 9000 rpm or so, and/or the events are ultra Mickey Mouse-twisty stuff.
8000 rpm red line, 5,08 and MTS' own 020 dog engagement kit, tops out at around about 100-and-a-bit mph on stock wheel size.

Nååååå drengen what would a newer car do better-er that the gamle gode Golf doesn't do?


And yeah the old---you'll never find that old 5,08 so-kallade 8v stuff anyway---5,08 was most interesting because of the sudden change to the so-called 16v.. And it was also interesting because it occured same time as Opel Kadett GSI box did the same thing---and everything since has done: way underdriven 'last 2 gears' dvs 4th-5th...and how it came out the same..

You know me pretty good and I'm old Dinosaur so I'm used to veeeeeeeeeeeeeeery tall first and short final drive and that is how the classic Escort, the gears i got for the Opel Manta and Ascona guys I got them, Saab 96 and 99 gearset and final worked, even modern stuff 9to me) like Sierra and even those Bayerisch Maggot Wagon do in real competition...
2.2 or 2.25 maybe and then 5:0 final for small n.a. motor and maybe 4.4 to 4.6 maybe 4.88 for turbo car.

It forced me to think there is more than one way to skin a cat...

But I guess you have fingered out that our roads in all of North America are relatively speaking most often much straighter and faster than even 1000 Lakes Grand Prix roads...and very seldom 'knixiga' (nu va fan säger man för knixiga? tricky?) roads like say South Swedish or what yours look like.

And very very few build their motors very hot so super short and super tight gears isn't usually needed---anymore.

And so we can "get away with" what I call 'pretty good' just fine..

But some part of me says such a shame more guys don't want anymore to ratchet it up to where we were 20 years ago and shoot for a little hotter engine...instead of dumping their cars for bluer things...(they wont spend $3000-4000 for and engine and $3-4000 for gear box but 10-12,000 for a street car.)..(or $70k for a all done Fordeye rolling smiley )

Oh well.



John Vanlandingham
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wildert
Brian Klausen
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Re: VW motorsports transmission parts
May 16, 2015 01:53PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Nååååå drengen what would a newer car do better-er that the gamle gode Golf doesn't do?

For the regulations and rules of the class that I am interested in?

Oooh... about everything...

To name a few:
- Better suspension setups and geometry. On tarmac that makes a (bigger) difference.
There's a reason that an early 2000's Mitsubishi Colt CZT with 150 bhp is faster around a track than the "icon" BMW E30 M3 (just the regular 193 bhp version though): +20 years of engineering, thinking and general tinkering has made a difference in handling performance.

- Better wheels. I have to stick to 15" wheels. I MIGHT be able to squeeze on some 16" and still get decent handling, but 16" rally tires are few and far between - and cost is too high.
Ideal is 17" for the bigger diameter which rolls easier, fits bigger brakes and most importantly the selection of tires.

- Much better engines - and many of the parts that we aren't allowed to change and/or modify in particular, makes for much easier and more drivable power potential.
Heck - a Peugeot 206 RC or Renault Clio make more power stock than my Golf does at this point.

- In extension of the engine benefit, there is the possibility to find a 1.6 litre turbo engine. It is allowed with a 29 mm. restrictor. Those setups make a little over 200 bhp all day long, usually with nothing more than a remap.
Power curve is wiiiide - which makes close ratio gear sets quite at bit obsolete - remember: same reason you push Xrattys and Volvo's... saves money..
Unfortunately 1.5-1.6 litre turbo charged cars are a thing of this millennium for the most part - but that adds all the above advantages as well.

Thing is... it is not so much the cost of the new base case that is issue.
My "dream" is a New Mini Cooper S - the later vintage with the 1.6 litre turbo - not the super charged model (restrictor is hard to fit on that one, and it doesn't have the wide power curve).
I can pick up one of those in Germany for around 5-6000€. Mid-2000's vintage.
Should be able to sell stuff like seats and interior, with a bit of luck a sat nav, and a few other things to some New Mini base model owner, and may be get back 1-2000€ depending on how much I can get rid of.
The big issue is - as always - the cage, seats, belts, skid plate, a few extra sets of wheels, fire extinguisher, maybe some half decent brake pads, and then obviously the suspenders, FD and LSD.
This stuff is always about the same price regardless of the car - new or old... (with the brilliant exception of some of the possibilities you guys have with for instance the Xratty - but that is a no-go in this neck of the woods - trust me - I have spend serious amounts of time in search of a Danish/European version of your Xratty recipe - it just doesn't add up here).

4-5000€ may seem a lot of money for the base car, but with ECU, cams, balancing, a few blown engines due to me f*cking around, and not to mention my frankencase transmission, I have at least half of that in the Golf, if not quite a bit more.
FD, a restrictor, and a remap - call it a day - and then go racing no worries. That seems almost economical as far as rally cars go smiling smiley.

Oh - and mind you... this would be a winning car (with the right driver) in that class!

Quote

You know me pretty good and I'm old Dinosaur so I'm used to veeeeeeeeeeeeeeery tall first and short final drive and that is how the classic Escort, the gears i got for the Opel Manta and Ascona guys I got them, Saab 96 and 99 gearset and final worked, even modern stuff 9to me) like Sierra and even those Bayerisch Maggot Wagon do in real competition...
2.2 or 2.25 maybe and then 5:0 final for small n.a. motor and maybe 4.4 to 4.6 maybe 4.88 for turbo car.

It forced me to think there is more than one way to skin a cat...

There sure is - but for some reason VW designed that transmission with fairly tall FD's, and relatively small diameter pinion gears to begin with. That means that going for lower FD's - maybe into the 5-something range - brings the diameter down really low.
If the ring gear had been bigger to begin with, then the pinion could have been as well for the same ratio.
But they didn't - and as far as I have figured out, that must be the reason for the VW's to be a bit odd on that matter (as well).
Basically it seems to me that you can't really make the comparison to those cars, since they have better designs to begin with.
Even the later 02A transmission seem to follow the rest of the world a bit better.

Quote

'knixiga' (nu va fan säger man för knixiga? tricky?)

You're the guy that speaks Swedish here - I just (barely) understand it smiling smiley.

Quote

But some part of me says such a shame more guys don't want anymore to ratchet it up to where we were 20 years ago and shoot for a little hotter engine...instead of dumping their cars for bluer things...(they wont spend $3000-4000 for and engine and $3-4000 for gear box but 10-12,000 for a street car.)..(or $70k for a all done Fordeye rolling smiley )

I kind of agree... it develops the driver more, having to keep the engine "at it", with a more peaky engine. It seems to me that you just learn more from having an engine/transmission combination like that.



Brgrds
Brian

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