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Good Rallye car build?

Posted by MassiveWolves 
Scott@USRT
Godlike Moderator
Join Date: 06/02/2015
Posts: 3


Re: Good Rallye car build?
June 03, 2015 11:04AM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
4) A new offering from USRT will solve one of John's complaints about expensive bits to make Golves go fast/fun. John is going to tell you that gearing is #1 for fun and is too expensive for FWD cars in general. USRT is releasing a K03 & K04 retrofit upgrade for 2.0L ABA 8v cross-flow motors found in both mk3 and mk4 VWs. Uses all factory 1.8t plumbing so an easy & cheap junkyard parts run and you have TORQUE which make the gearbox a non-issue other than finding a limited slip differential (there are plenty of options available from Gripper & Kaaz).

One of the lovely things about VWs is the fact that so many parts from one chassis generation to the next interchange. -sometimes effortlessly and almost always with plenty of aftermarket support. I feel a bit odd making my first post in this forum about my creation. However, it was mentioned. So, now's the time to provide contextual information (while I stay out of the food fight). Since photos are worth a thousand words, I'll just let them tell the development story.









Summary: Our upcoming 2.0l 8vT kit will position a K03 or K04 turbo in the exact 3D space as on a Mk4 Golf or Jetta. Thus, all Mk4 1.8T plumbing bits will bolt to it (i.e. SMIC, exhaust, piping, etc). On a Mk2 or Mk3 car, you'll need to fabricate your own IC piping and such, but that's no biggy. (Down pipes are already available.) What's certain is that the power band for this combination will be outstanding for rally use. -"torque NOW!" We'll make promo deals for rallyists in good standing with the community (which is almost everybody because we all get along respectfully, right?). Shiny side up!





Scott F. Williams
Team Director
US Rally Team
856.456.3335



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2015 11:22AM by Scott@USRT.
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rally864
Erik Hill
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Location: Green Bay, WI
Join Date: 05/09/2012
Age: Party Animal
Posts: 13

Rally Car:
ZX3 Focus (Building)


Re: Good Rallye car build?
June 03, 2015 12:03PM
After I got done with the orange focus as mentioned above it was worth about $45 bucks in scrap. I purchased the car from Van Way when building my focus. I can assure you that the car wasn't a 6 figure car.

After building my focus I find it kind of hard to stick 6 figures into one when building it in a 2wd platform. Now if you were a person with no fabrication skill and no means of mechanical skill and had to pay someone for everything then you might be able to.

I would recommend a focus to anyone looking into building a new car. They are cheap and dime a dozen. The real only problem I have had with my car is the rear arms bending. But I have gusseted them and have not had a problem since. I am currently working on a coil over set up for the rear with a tubular arm which would get rid of the only complaint I have with my car.
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Josh Wimpey
Josh Wimpey
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Location: VA
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Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 642

Rally Car:
Sneak the Golf


Re: Good Rallye car build?
June 03, 2015 12:15PM
Quote
rally864

After building my focus I find it kind of hard to stick 6 figures into one when building it in a 2wd platform. Now if you were a person with no fabrication skill and no means of mechanical skill and had to pay someone for everything then you might be able to.
.

Isn't that exactly how the orange focus was built & run?



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http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf
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rally864
Erik Hill
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Location: Green Bay, WI
Join Date: 05/09/2012
Age: Party Animal
Posts: 13

Rally Car:
ZX3 Focus (Building)


Re: Good Rallye car build?
June 03, 2015 12:24PM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
Quote
rally864

After building my focus I find it kind of hard to stick 6 figures into one when building it in a 2wd platform. Now if you were a person with no fabrication skill and no means of mechanical skill and had to pay someone for everything then you might be able to.
.

Isn't that exactly how the orange focus was built & run?

The car was originally built buy a group of polish guys out of Chicago they ran the car for a few years and then Van Way bought it. Van Way maintained the car about a year or so then Whiskers took over the car and did all the maintenance and prep on it. I mean if you totaled all the times it was wrecked and all the prep fees and everything you could say it was a 6 figure car, but the like goes with any car. I we kept track of every piece and part and labor that we've all put into our cars they would all eventually be 6 figure cars.
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RALLYRS
Mike Ball
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2.3 Duratec ZX3 yard art...2.5 coming some day..


Re: Good Rallye car build?
June 03, 2015 12:53PM
Josh...thanks for your input..I attached a pic of you racing(and trouncing )said orange Focus at rallycross.

As far as Andrew K's car being in Canada..not the US...I would imagine your typical Canadian Focus builds would be quite similar to those on the other side of the border-no?
Maybe even more expensive on the north side with customs fees?

Or are our Canadian Rallyanarchists from the great white North hoarding special secret Canadian -spec focus parts...
possibly stamped with a maple leaf? smiling smiley


Erik thanks for your input too.

So you bought the Orange Focus as a wrecked parts car?

Any link to your current build?



....................................



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2015 01:08PM by RALLYRS.
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VW AND FOCUS.jpg
Robert Culbertson
Robert Culbertson
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Location: Portland , Or
Join Date: 08/15/2010
Age: Party Animal
Posts: 1,208

Rally Car:
MK2 VW GTI



Re: Good Rallye car build?
June 03, 2015 01:04PM
The Focus is the new Golf, though a little bit heavier (not a bad thing if the metals in the right spots!). Dime a dozen, they make plenty of power with the 2.0/2.3 duratec or Zetec with a little work. Gearing and diff options are out there for the MTX75.

It's getting harder to find replacement parts for the mk2/3 VWs. Most shells are full of rust now anyways.
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rally864
Erik Hill
Mod Moderator
Location: Green Bay, WI
Join Date: 05/09/2012
Age: Party Animal
Posts: 13

Rally Car:
ZX3 Focus (Building)


Re: Good Rallye car build?
June 03, 2015 01:57PM
Quote
RALLYRS
Josh...thanks for your input..I attached a pic of you racing(and trouncing )said orange Focus at rallycross.

As far as Andrew K's car being in Canada..not the US...I would imagine your typical Canadian Focus builds would be quite similar to those on the other side of the border-no?
Maybe even more expensive on the north side with customs fees?

Or are our Canadian Rallyanarchists from the great white North hoarding special secret Canadian -spec focus parts...
possibly stamped with a maple leaf? smiling smiley


Erik thanks for your input too.

So you bought the Orange Focus as a wrecked parts car?

Any link to your current build?



....................................

Mike I didn't do a build thread or anything for my build mostly took the time to just build the car and not really worry about documenting the build. there are a few pics on my facebook page at Erik Hill Racing of the build.

I purchased the car as a running driving car just as it came off the rally cross track. I had to pull the drive train out and return it to whiskers but everything else was there. I got the whole spare parts package and all. My intentions were to rebuild Van Ways car and hit the stages with minimal off time from selling my previous car and slowly build my car but after assessing DVW's car we just decided to continue on with our build. I just scrapped the car last summer. if someone wanted to spend the time and replace a bunch of the sheet metal on it you could have made it a usable car again but by the time you did that you could just buy a new shell and start fresh.
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,996

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Good Rallye car build?
June 03, 2015 02:24PM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
Quote
rally864

After building my focus I find it kind of hard to stick 6 figures into one when building it in a 2wd platform. Now if you were a person with no fabrication skill and no means of mechanical skill and had to pay someone for everything then you might be able to.
.

Isn't that exactly how the orange focus was built & run?

Josh I lurv ya and all but whn you say in Point 3 above

Quote

3) Ignore John unless you have lots of fab skills or are willing to pay for fabrication well beyond cage work

I hafta squirm a bit reading that.

Unless a person is flat rich then any person desiring to do and STAY in rally better learn some pretty rudimentary fab/weld skills...
We don't have the biggest thing they have in the good countries: volunteer networks....
everybody is an expert on keyboards, few can weld
So we have everybody with 3 rallies EVER who if they have a keyboard and hang out a lot open shops and begin working for PAY...

EVERY car needs some strengthening and welding IF you want to do more than the "3 rallys and disappear" act.


Second--don't take this wrong now, OK? But : you're one to talk..tongue sticking out smiley
Your previous Golf was very nicely and very extensively worked on
And your current version is even more so..

So saying don't pay attention to me unless you have you have lots of fab skills implies the things I suggest are junk unless you fab a lot..

And that's flat wrong..
Plenty of guys doing the Xratty or Volvo route have decided to go in in advance and stitch and strengthen and mod a few easy things...like adding towers..Some it was "hell", but look at eric Everty and Matt Watson, one a 22 year old the other early 30s, neither had done ANY fab/weld type stuff. But they both built good solid cars....


Knowing now how much of a whim thing "wanting" to go rally is now I say "Meh, if you have the engine out you might wanna stitch weld at that time..."
Not an absolute..
I now know better most are not interested in really stretching themselves, or growing and learning new skills and developing as a person, they just want to put lots of stickers on their cars and post on FaceBook about how cool rallyracing is..

And I make a point to show people lots of VOC cars from Sweden and Finland, even Holland and Germany--Volvo ORIGINAL cup.....and they're always impressed--only after do i point out those were VOC cars and what that means...that they can do similar if they want..
and kick plenty of ass if they want to.

Finally:
what the hell are you going on about how buckets of torque isn't going to stress a gearbox?
Torque is exactly what stresses boxes...

I understand that its a way to overcome the expense of sourcing and installing a short axel ratio...

And while I agree broad torque lessen the need for fun ratios, final drive is still important...
Can't get around that...and it is a big gawddam pisser cause I like N.A. cars, and I like Golves.. IIs IIIs, even 4s --with normal knuckles..
But damn FWD bits are expensive..
But da fuq?



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Senior Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,996

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Good Rallye car build?
June 03, 2015 02:29PM
Quote
rally864
Quote
RALLYRS
Josh...thanks for your input..I attached a pic of you racing(and trouncing )said orange Focus at rallycross.

As far as Andrew K's car being in Canada..not the US...I would imagine your typical Canadian Focus builds would be quite similar to those on the other side of the border-no?
Maybe even more expensive on the north side with customs fees?

Or are our Canadian Rallyanarchists from the great white North hoarding special secret Canadian -spec focus parts...
possibly stamped with a maple leaf? smiling smiley


Erik thanks for your input too.

So you bought the Orange Focus as a wrecked parts car?

Any link to your current build?



....................................

Mike I didn't do a build thread or anything for my build mostly took the time to just build the car and not really worry about documenting the build. there are a few pics on my facebook page at Erik Hill Racing of the build.

I purchased the car as a running driving car just as it came off the rally cross track. I had to pull the drive train out and return it to whiskers but everything else was there. I got the whole spare parts package and all. My intentions were to rebuild Van Ways car and hit the stages with minimal off time from selling my previous car and slowly build my car but after assessing DVW's car we just decided to continue on with our build. I just scrapped the car last summer. if someone wanted to spend the time and replace a bunch of the sheet metal on it you could have made it a usable car again but by the time you did that you could just buy a new shell and start fresh.

yeah if you can find an unrusty one up there..

What you planning on the rear? Pretty easy jobs have been done already for coilover shocks and even one guy in NH did rear struts...
Kuligowski and Sutherland and another guy in NY seem pretty tickled with the nice long Bilstein I've sent them, so curious what you got in mind



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
rally864
Erik Hill
Mod Moderator
Location: Green Bay, WI
Join Date: 05/09/2012
Age: Party Animal
Posts: 13

Rally Car:
ZX3 Focus (Building)


Re: Good Rallye car build?
June 03, 2015 02:59PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Quote
rally864
Quote
RALLYRS
Josh...thanks for your input..I attached a pic of you racing(and trouncing )said orange Focus at rallycross.

As far as Andrew K's car being in Canada..not the US...I would imagine your typical Canadian Focus builds would be quite similar to those on the other side of the border-no?
Maybe even more expensive on the north side with customs fees?

Or are our Canadian Rallyanarchists from the great white North hoarding special secret Canadian -spec focus parts...
possibly stamped with a maple leaf? smiling smiley


Erik thanks for your input too.

So you bought the Orange Focus as a wrecked parts car?

Any link to your current build?



....................................

Mike I didn't do a build thread or anything for my build mostly took the time to just build the car and not really worry about documenting the build. there are a few pics on my facebook page at Erik Hill Racing of the build.

I purchased the car as a running driving car just as it came off the rally cross track. I had to pull the drive train out and return it to whiskers but everything else was there. I got the whole spare parts package and all. My intentions were to rebuild Van Ways car and hit the stages with minimal off time from selling my previous car and slowly build my car but after assessing DVW's car we just decided to continue on with our build. I just scrapped the car last summer. if someone wanted to spend the time and replace a bunch of the sheet metal on it you could have made it a usable car again but by the time you did that you could just buy a new shell and start fresh.

yeah if you can find an unrusty one up there..

What you planning on the rear? Pretty easy jobs have been done already for coilover shocks and even one guy in NH did rear struts...
Kuligowski and Sutherland and another guy in NY seem pretty tickled with the nice long Bilstein I've sent them, so curious what you got in mind

John,

When looking for my donor car I was lucky enough to find a 2001 with 55k miles rust free with a blown engine. I also recently picked up an 2005 with the 2.0 duratec with under 100k on it rust free. So I have been pretty lucky on finding rust free ones but I do get what your saying about finding a clean candidate.

I have looked into what you built and am thinking about replicating a similar set up. I know a few guys around here that are into racing short course off road so going to try to incorporate there style into the rear also.
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Josh Wimpey
Josh Wimpey
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Location: VA
Join Date: 12/27/2006
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 642

Rally Car:
Sneak the Golf


Re: Good Rallye car build?
June 03, 2015 03:23PM
John,

Regarding my old golf, it is a really simple build. The fabrication list is extremely short and mostly outsourced:
1) Cage & seat mounts -- half outsourced (I hand fit all the tubes, Eric & Jeremy welded it all up) $=cost of tubing, wire, and consumables.
2) Skidplate & frame -- outsourced to Piper ~$250
3) Tow hooks $5 1/2" rebar and vice and hammer
4) Steering quickener mount -- outsourced To Piper ~$230
5) JVAB front strut housings & inserts -- outsourced to JVAB ~$800

Everything else was a simple bolt-on or zip-tie affair unless you want to count the exhaust post-header (header was of course bolt-on).

And, I am not opposed to bettering myself, learning new skills, or doing hard work. BUT, that is often not an efficient way to build a car or race it.

I totally agree with you that a supportive rally-network is absolutely the most efficient way to go but most people don't have that for a variety of reasons -- perhaps mostly because of small numbers to begin with interested in rally? So, what do you do if you don't have fab skill, you don't have a network with fab skills, and you don't have time (or interest) in learning fab skill and investing in equipment? You buy parts and play legos.



Quote
john vanlandingham
Finally:
what the hell are you going on about how buckets of torque isn't going to stress a gearbox?
Torque is exactly what stresses boxes...

I am not seeing a problem. The VW boxes I am thinking of for mk3 & 4 cars are plenty capable,without modification, of holding the 200lb-ft of torque one might find useful for rally. A ko3 turbo is plenty to spin the wheels through 4th gear on gravel...



____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf
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Scott@USRT
Godlike Moderator
Join Date: 06/02/2015
Posts: 3


Re: Good Rallye car build?
June 03, 2015 05:41PM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
I am not seeing a problem. The VW boxes I am thinking of for mk3 & 4 cars are plenty capable,without modification, of holding the 200lb-ft of torque one might find useful for rally. A ko3 turbo is plenty to spin the wheels through 4th gear on gravel...

This is straight truth. The VW 02A/J transmissions are bulletproof at this power/torque level and are dirt cheap due to their ubiquity. Parts are 100% interchangeable among those produced from 1990 - 2005. Gear ratios abound from impractically tall to stump pulling. Imho, the VWs possess an uncommonly good package of conveniences that lend themselves to rally usage. That's the machines themselves to the support for them (including aftermarket parts and an incredibly huge enthusiast base).



Scott F. Williams
Team Director
US Rally Team
856.456.3335
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Senior Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,996

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Good Rallye car build?
June 03, 2015 05:46PM
Quote
rally864

John,

When looking for my donor car I was lucky enough to find a 2001 with 55k miles rust free with a blown engine. I also recently picked up an 2005 with the 2.0 duratec with under 100k on it rust free. So I have been pretty lucky on finding rust free ones but I do get what your saying about finding a clean candidate.

I have looked into what you built and am thinking about replicating a similar set up. I know a few guys around here that are into racing short course off road so going to try to incorporate there style into the rear also.

Good, truck guys are usually fairly awake if the actually race...and in all USA , according to the techs I talk to at Bilstein who do the actual work assembling the inserts and doing the re-valves, they're the only people who don't consistently want valving and springs "waaay waaaaaaaay too stiff all the time...aside from you".

Here's the thing---follow along.. They make a lotta cool stuff---for what they're doing...and they seem to not be shy about spending money..
I am extremely budget minded to the point people get all snotty and scream at me that not everybody is broke ass...
So for example the Sooooper Bitchin tubular thing that I cooked up some years ago and which Willaim of TSS Fab carved up and welded (I was being nice to a new business and flipping him some work---nice, huh? ) was/is real neato torpedo and gosh golly keen, but it cost money and time...Daddy paid for it in that case..
In the passage of time I have had now maybe 6-7 other Fuckii to do and mostly it was younger guys---not broke but not rolling in dough like Daddy was.

I came up with an idea for a very very cheap way to get 85% of the benefit: strength---for 1/10 the cost...

the idea was to NOT cut away the forward running part of the


but instead, just weld some CrMo tubes to the backside of the OEM part that mimics the shallow V we made..
And swap out the other stamped curtain rods..
We went overboard, as always for the diameter and wall, and it cost more fab time welding in the weld ends..
Screw it, for less that $12 you buy circle track swadged links..

There's the ol' saying "No reason to re-re-invent the wheel, again, for the second time, again"

KnowwhatImeanvern?



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Senior Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,996

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Good Rallye car build?
June 03, 2015 05:49PM
Quote
Scott@USRT
Quote
Josh Wimpey
I am not seeing a problem. The VW boxes I am thinking of for mk3 & 4 cars are plenty capable,without modification, of holding the 200lb-ft of torque one might find useful for rally. A ko3 turbo is plenty to spin the wheels through 4th gear on gravel...

This is straight truth. The VW 02A/J transmissions are bulletproof at this power/torque level and are dirt cheap due to their ubiquity. Parts are 100% interchangeable among those produced from 1990 - 2005. Gear ratios abound from impractically tall to stump pulling. Imho, the VWs possess an uncommonly good package of conveniences that lend themselves to rally usage. That's the machines themselves to the support for them (including aftermarket parts and an incredibly huge enthusiast base).

Stump pulling?
Come on are you shovelling ion a wee bit deep eh?

I don't recall seeiong any stock final drives shorter than 4.2 and if that's stump pulling, what is my stock 4.88? or my rally car 5.43?

(Psssst How's your sister? Still remember meeting you---and her a loooooooooooong time ago (blush)"winking smiley



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Scott@USRT
Godlike Moderator
Join Date: 06/02/2015
Posts: 3


Re: Good Rallye car build?
June 03, 2015 06:43PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Stump pulling?
Come on are you shovelling ion a wee bit deep eh?

I don't recall seeiong any stock final drives shorter than 4.2 and if that's stump pulling, what is my stock 4.88? or my rally car 5.43?

That = "stump pulling" aggressive when discussed among non-rally lunatics, man. -especially when paired with a USRT turbo system. (chuckle) Even with NA, though, the average "club" level competitor isn't building a 9k rpm grenade motor. They're more likely to do something that utilizes the VW engine's inherently "rally-friendly" torque band. I mean all of them, really. -the 2.slow 8vs, 16vs, and the dumb VR6 (which has no place in a rally car, imho). Horsepower? -not so much. Torque? Yeah, and "now, thanks".

Quote

(Psssst How's your sister? Still remember meeting you---and her a loooooooooooong time ago (blush)"winking smiley

Heheh, she's doin' just fine. -married with a 5-month old. eye popping smiley



Scott F. Williams
Team Director
US Rally Team
856.456.3335
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