VW 020 Close Ratio stuff

Ok, so I have to VW Motorsports gearboxes, or at least they're the same ratios. One was in one of my Golfs, and the only history I know about it was that it was installed in around 1995 and was supposedly sourced from Salty.

The other came from Sean Callahan's Scirocco, the one that Sameer and I wadded up at Prescott 2004.

I don't have pictures of the first, but there are pictures of the second in the set below.

The problem is that the one in my Golf is perfectly functional, but its gears are getting worn, particularly 1st and the final drive. That Golf has a 4.64 F/D, so I contacted MTS and ordered their "racing quality" FD, which only comes in a 4.53 ratio.

Prior to that, I had picked up a 4.64 Hor from Ebay in a fluke buy. It was $120 and just happened to pop up while I was looking for something completely different. This was several years ago, but I figured I should snag it, so I did. I forgot I had it until after I got the one from MTS.

At any rate, here're a bunch of pics.

First, we have the new "racing quality" 4.53 from MTS, which is actually a Hor:


and the output shaft with its pinion:


The full shaft:


Next, the 4.64 I got off Ebay:


And its output shaft/pinion:


Note that it's undercut into...uh, I don't know what that area is, but you can see it better on this pic of the full shaft:



The two ring gears, side by side. The 4.64 is closest.:


And another shot of them. The 4.64 is on the bottom.:



From this, it looks like I may have wasted money going to MTS for this, and should just have used the one I got off Ebay, but I'm not sure. Both have the tops of the cogs lopped off, but the 4.64 has a straighter cut. I'd prefer the 4.64 from a driving standpoint.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

Next up, we have the gears from the Scirocco. These are here because I'm trying to figure out if they're salvageable. My 1st is worn, so I'm going to need to replace it with something.

Here's output shaft. You can see (left to right) the pinion, then a plate, the first, reverse, second, and third:


And the input side, pointing the opposite way. You see (left to right), fourth, third, second, reverse, and first:


A closeup of first:


And second/third:


Second has some chunks taken out of the edges of the teeth, so I'm wondering if it's even salvageable at all.

Here's a closeup of fourth:


And its shaft seat:


And, for kicks, the other side of fourth and both sides of fifth:


The loose gears and the shaft were inscribed with an "R". I don't know what that means:

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Self-righteous douche canoe

One other thing: the input shafts of both my "VWMS" gearboxes are 8v, which means they're
22mm and have a smaller clutch spline count than the 16v shafts (which are 24mm).

So, here're the questions:

1) The 4.64 I bought off Ebay looks just as robust as the 4.53, and it's a gear ratio I'd prefer. Is there something I'm missing when comparing them that would lead me to install the 4.53 instead?

2) The 4.53 and all other output R/P's from MTS are listed as being "8v". What exactly does that mean for an output shaft? I had thought all the output shafts were the same, but I've also heard that 4th was different.

3) MTS has indicated that they will have 1st/2nd available at the end of the year, but only for 16v input shafts. Since they only sell "8v" output shafts, what does this mean? Can the output side of the 1st/2nd gears from the 16v be mounted on the "8v" output shaft? Can the input side of the "8v" 3rd/4th/5th be mounted on the 16v input shaft?

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Self-righteous douche canoe

And for Tony "Towona" who's gonna ask: no this was not in the car I brought to Big White. That was my P-Stock Golf whose gearbox is a regular GTI one but with a 4.20 F/D.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

Quote
hoche


2) The 4.53 and all other output R/P's from MTS are listed as being "8v". What exactly does that mean for an output shaft? I had thought all the output shafts were the same, but I've also heard that 4th was different.

3) MTS has indicated that they will have 1st/2nd available at the end of the year, but only for 16v input shafts. Since they only sell "8v" output shafts, what does this mean? Can the output side of the 1st/2nd gears from the 16v be mounted on the "8v" output shaft? Can the input side of the "8v" 3rd/4th/5th be mounted on the 16v input shaft?

I think I can help here.

Yes, it is the fourth gear that's different. If you look at the shafts, you'll see they are different around the fourth gear area. I think it may be that one of the gears is thicker (although that might have been a 5th gear difference...).

I don't believe you can use 8v gears on 16v shafts, but I've been told you can use "mis-matched" 4th gears, since you can find the same diameter and ratios available in 8v and 16v boxes. From what I was told, there may be some noise since they might not be perfectly meshed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2015 07:56AM by fliz.

Quote
hoche
One other thing: the input shafts of both my "VWMS" gearboxes are 8v, which means they're
22mm and have a smaller clutch spline count than the 16v shafts (which are 24mm).

So, here're the questions:

1) The 4.64 I bought off Ebay looks just as robust as the 4.53, and it's a gear ratio I'd prefer. Is there something I'm missing when comparing them that would lead me to install the 4.53 instead?

I agree. Sounds like you scored a deal off ebay! The 4.64 looks like it has less of a helix angle, so it might make more noise, but it will have less axial thrust force so less stress on the case. Sounds like a winner to me.

Quote
hoche
2) The 4.53 and all other output R/P's from MTS are listed as being "8v". What exactly does that mean for an output shaft? I had thought all the output shafts were the same, but I've also heard that 4th was different.

As fliz mentioned, the splines for 4th gear are different for the 8v and 16v output shafts. For an 8v output shaft you need an 8v 4th gear and circlip. The other difference is 5th gear is held on by a washer and a circlip on 8v output shafts, while 16v 5th gear uses a special clip and no washer. Broke has an excellent write-up as usual: http://www.brokevw.com/5thswap2.html

Quote
hoche
3) MTS has indicated that they will have 1st/2nd available at the end of the year, but only for 16v input shafts. Since they only sell "8v" output shafts, what does this mean? Can the output side of the 1st/2nd gears from the 16v be mounted on the "8v" output shaft? Can the input side of the "8v" 3rd/4th/5th be mounted on the 16v input shaft?

That's odd, they told me they would only make 1/2 for 8v input shafts. Anyway, the answer to your question is yes, you can run 16v 1/2 on an 8v output shaft, and you can also run 8v 3/4/5 on a 16v input shaft. I would keep sets together though and not mix gears that are already worn together.

Edit to add: Keep in mind you can't swap a 16v input shaft into an 8v case, or vice versa since the shafts and bearings are different sizes. So if you buy a 16v input shaft, you need a new case, which may need to be clearanced to fit your VWMS gears...

Also, based on the limited pictures I've seen, 16v VWMS transmissions used an 8v output shaft. I don't think there are any 16v style VWMS output shafts. I could be wrong though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2015 11:08AM by Erik Christiansen.

Quote
hoche

And second/third:


Second has some chunks taken out of the edges of the teeth, so I'm wondering if it's even salvageable at all.

This is exactly where I had interference between 2nd and 3rd gear when I first put together my gears from MTS (1.68:1 3rd gear in an AGB ). Remember how I ended up taking my transmission out and not running it at HDT because I heard a "clicking" noise? It was the top of 2nd on the input shaft interfering with the bottom of 3rd on the output shaft. I ended up installing an OEM shim between the input shaft ball bearing and the case in order to get the shafts to line up correctly. Part #'s are 020311140 for a 0.3mm shim and 020311140A for a 0.6mm shim. Buy both and have them on hand. I'm curious if you had this shim in your transmission. Also, if that big ball bearing wears it can allow some axial play, which could lead to interference that wasn't there to begin with.

In a stock transmission, it is not too sensitive to lining up the shafts axially because 3rd gear on the output shaft is physically much smaller than 2nd. But with a close ratio gearset the gears are close in size, so they will interfere if not lined up just right. Here's a picture to show what I'm talking about:



Having just been through this, you need a lot of patience for this type of rebuild. Much more than a stock 020 rebuild. I would recommend test fitting everything using the old circlips, gaskets and 5th gear bolt to make sure that you don't have any interference issues. Then take it all apart and reassemble with new circlips, gaskets and 5th gear bolt. It's really the only way to set the clearance correctly. I also had to clearance the case to get the gears to fit. This may not apply to you if you're reusing the case, and the 8v VWMS gears probably don't need as much clearance. I'm curious to see pics of the inside of the case though.

Measuring input shaft shim needed:



-Erik

Quote
Erik Christiansen
That's odd, they told me they would only make 1/2 for 8v input shafts.

Here is what Jochen sent in reply to my email when I inquired about the 4.53:

Quote
Jochen at MTS-Motorsport
Hi Michel

The 4,53 eight valve unit is in stock , and is produced by Hoer ,

the supplier of VW racing transmission parts.

The first and second gears , we will reproduce at winter / spring 2015/16 ,
but with stronger (16V) inletshaft only !!

The shipping price via UPS will be about 125,- euro , shipping time is about
2-3 days !!

Best regards

Jochen MTS-Motorsport

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Self-righteous douche canoe

Quote
hoche

Quote
Erik Christiansen
That's odd, they told me they would only make 1/2 for 8v input shafts.

Here is what Jochen sent in reply to my email when I inquired about the 4.53:

Quote
Jochen at MTS-Motorsport
Hi Michel

The 4,53 eight valve unit is in stock , and is produced by Hoer ,

the supplier of VW racing transmission parts.

The first and second gears , we will reproduce at winter / spring 2015/16 ,
but with stronger (16V) inletshaft only !!

The shipping price via UPS will be about 125,- euro , shipping time is about
2-3 days !!

Best regards

Jochen MTS-Motorsport

Oh, my mistake. I was confused. I re-read the email they sent me. The 8v only was in response to final drives and not the inlet shaft. Good to know!

Ill add my MTS 4.86 8V ring/pinion photo to the mix for comparison. My transmission is being put back together right now.

Quote
hoche
And for Tony "Towona" who's gonna ask: no this was not in the car I brought to Big White. That was my P-Stock Golf whose gearbox is a regular GTI one but with a 4.20 F/D.

Lol.

I wasn't gonna ask. :p

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Runamuck Rally

Quote
hoche
Ok, so I have to VW Motorsports gearboxes, or at least they're the same ratios. One was in one of my Golfs, and the only history I know about it was that it was installed in around 1995 and was supposedly sourced from Salty.

The other came from Sean Callahan's Scirocco, the one that Sameer and I wadded up at Prescott 2004.

I don't have pictures of the first, but there are pictures of the second in the set below.

The problem is that the one in my Golf is perfectly functional, but its gears are getting worn, particularly 1st and the final drive. That Golf has a 4.64 F/D, so I contacted MTS and ordered their "racing quality" FD, which only comes in a 4.53 ratio.

Prior to that, I had picked up a 4.64 Hor from Ebay in a fluke buy. It was $120 and just happened to pop up while I was looking for something completely different. This was several years ago, but I figured I should snag it, so I did. I forgot I had it until after I got the one from MTS.

At any rate, here're a bunch of pics.

First, we have the new "racing quality" 4.53 from MTS, which is actually a Hor:


and the output shaft with its pinion:


The full shaft:


Next, the 4.64 I got off Ebay:


And its output shaft/pinion:


Note that it's undercut into...uh, I don't know what that area is, but you can see it better on this pic of the full shaft:



The two ring gears, side by side. The 4.64 is closest.:


And another shot of them. The 4.64 is on the bottom.:



From this, it looks like I may have wasted money going to MTS for this, and should just have used the one I got off Ebay, but I'm not sure. Both have the tops of the cogs lopped off, but the 4.64 has a straighter cut. I'd prefer the 4.64 from a driving standpoint.

So you have an 8V 4.53 and a 16V 4.64, which did you end up going with?

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Power means nothing if you cannot control it!

The 4:64 is an 8v one. After comparing its construction to the 4.53, I went with the 4.64.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

Must be just perspective but it looked to me as if the 2 shafts had different ODs on the second set of splines down from the non-pinion end, where 4th sits.
I am searching for a 16V R&P, would prefer 4.20 if you or anyone else might have.

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Power means nothing if you cannot control it!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2015 05:28PM by ElectroTech.

Quote
ElectroTech
Must be just perspective but it looked to me as if the 2 shafts had different ODs on the second set of splines down from the non-pinion end, where 4th sits.

That's the difference between 16V and 8V on the pinion shaft side of things.

Quote

I am searching for a 16V R&P, would prefer 4.20 if you or anyone else might have.

4.25 is a stock part - but 8V IIRC.
You can mix and match however. 8V 4th fits on 16v input shaft and vice versa.
It is only the pinion shaft that is special.

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Brgrds
Brian